I’m sorry but I’ve never heard of the crusade against poverty or drugs, only the WAR against poverty and drugs. This is the first time I have ever heard that word used by our government. And it isn’t JUST the use of that word. It’s the talk of God protecting our country and the need for us to pray for all of this. That also makes it sound like a religious war. In fact, all I hear about is that there were Christians, Jews, and Muslims killed in the attack. Well, there were probably also athiests, agnostics, Buddhists, Satan worshippers, Hindus, etc… killed too. Are they less important? Since when did only 3 religions exist in this country? Or are those three the ones most connected to this situation? If so, it seems that religion is playing a bigger role in this than some would like to admit. Unless the focus gets away from religion, we are really going to have our hands full. Americans were killed by terrorists because of their own misguided religious beliefs and their contempt of ours. Lets make sure that we don’t retaliate for the same reasons.
MUSICMAN –
Nevertheless, the word “crusade” has a generic meaning other than “religious war” – specifically, “a vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.” (Dictionary.com) Therefore, it is not reasonable to assume that Bush used the term to mean “holy war” when he could just have easily (and more likely) have been using its more generic meaning.
Well, I think that’s a huge leap. I have heard nothing regarding the invocation of God or His sanction regarding any planned or contemplated war action. I have heard numerous references and appeals to God in regards to the tragedy just suffered and to supporting people and healing us all in the wake of it. Those are pretty obviously not the same thing.
Well, I really don’t see it, at least not on a political level in terms of war or military action. The president and others have invoked God in terms of the tragedy, and we can certainly talk about whether that was or is appropriate – I think so, but I realize others think not. But you would have to be able to point on some attempt to affix holy sanction to the military action before you could persuasively argue that it is being presented or pursued as a “holy war.” And I just don’t see any of that.
As I have said, I do not believe religion underlies the motivation for retaliatiatory or other actions to be undertaken in the wake of these attacks. There are other obvious sound, non-religious reasons for what has been done and is being done – like the safety of the nation and justice for the dead. If your Christian friends lead you to believe that most American Christians believe this is a holy war, then they have seriously misled you. And if they assert that it is a religious crusade or an apocalyptic scenario, then whatever else may be said for their Christianity, it almost certainly isn’t moderate.
First of all, I appreciate your being respectful in this debate. Perhaps this should have been in GD but I figured I would get flamed so…
These are a few outakes from “the speech”.
From Presidents speech, 9/20/01
“And finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead.”
“The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.”
These quotes are not necessarily outrageous but they raised my eyebrows when I heard them probably because I don't share these beliefs. Prayer has not comforted me in this situation, and it will not strengthen me for the journey ahead. I would assume other athiests would agree. I just wish people would realize that we are out there too and we feel the same pain and no amount of prayer will take that away.
The second quote suggests that God is obviously on our side because we are right. We need to understand that to many Muslims, not just terrorists, America is not as "blessed by God" as some of us believe. They find the the freedom of speech and religion, and our wealth, quite unholy. They dislike what America stands for. For that reason, I think it is important to leave religious ideas out of this completely. If the President and other Christians want to pray, I have no problem with that at all. But the speech sounded like he was saying that we are a Christian nation and therefore God will be beside us 100%. That seems as if it could be insulting to a lot of people.Imagine if this was done by some crazy Jewish fundamentalist instead of crazy Islamic fundamentalists.
Bush: “I am seeking a final solution to terrorism. God is on our side”
See? not such a good thing. That would not only be in horrible taste, it would bring an unnessecary religious-war element to the situation.
Words have meanings, and the word of our president have reprecussions that spread far and wide, and that affect nation’s attitudes. I can’t believe that anyone would let Bush say something so…fucked up. Bush isn’t just running his mouth, he is determining the future. And, I’m sorry, no matter how folksy you think you are you don’t say things that fucked up while your every word sways the fate of the world.
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Even Sven,
Very well put! This isn’t just nitpicking, it’s serious shit. That’s why the “Well, you know what he meant” attitude is ignorant. No, everyone doesn’t know what he meant.
Even Sven,
Very well put! This isn’t just nitpicking, it’s serious shit. That’s why the “Well, you know what he meant” attitude is ignorant. No, everyone doesn’t know what he meant.