# US Sebate Lockerbie enquiry postponed as British Ministers refuse to attend **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2010, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294 "2010-07-28T11:15:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/21 "2010-07-28T16:55:06Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I am very confused, it seems that either a) the Scottish Justice System is too be respected and trusted so the verdict is correct and they need to come to the US to defend the release; or 2) the Socttish Justice System is to be respected so their decision to release the prisoner is not worhty of our review and by the way thhey probably convicted the wrong person. If the Scottish justice system is respected and trusted (as it ought to be), they don’t _need_ to come to the US to defend the release. [QUOTE=Bricker] For example, the Scottish trial and appeal process may be above reproach, but the political decision to release him was not part of that process, instead perhaps arising from the corruption-laden Scottish government and officials with pockets so stuffed with BP’s money that they can barely walk. [/QUOTE] In which case, of course, American airmen who killed British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan will be packed off to Britain to attend reopened inquests into the deaths. You know, since they were killed as the result of a political decision to line the pockets of American officials who happened to be Halliburton stockholders. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/22 "2010-07-29T01:29:42Z")
[Semi-Rant mode] Ironically it was the “progressives” in Britain who said “OMG! This man is going to die of cancer and never see his family again _SNIFF_ _SNIFF_! We must release him despite the fact that he murdered hundreds of innocent people!” and were dupes of BP. :rolleyes::dubious: Would have been just and quite poetic if we had engineered a plane bombing of our own when that terrorist was flying home to Libya. [Semi-Rant mode over]. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/23 "2010-07-29T01:58:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > [Semi-Rant mode] Ironically it was the “progressives” in Britain who said “OMG! This man is going to die of cancer and never see his family again _SNIFF_ _SNIFF_! We must release him despite the fact that he murdered hundreds of innocent people!” and were dupes of BP. :rolleyes::dubious: Would have been just and quite poetic if we had engineered a plane bombing of our own when that terrorist was flying home to Libya. [Semi-Rant mode over]. More of this kind of trenchant and well informed commentary please! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/24 "2010-07-29T07:32:45Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > > [@Rune](#): > > > > I trust British courts to deliver a fair trial. > > Excellent. You trust the British legal system. This system was also involved in his release. We’re done here then, yeah? I have no doubt that they acted within the laws. It is the laws that I object to, and perhaps the Scottish meaning of “very limited”, which apparently means “10 years or more”. It is of course also absurd to claim that an American institution can demand people from another nation to attend a US inquiry. But the requested persons could easily have gone there themselves, freely, as a kind gesture between friendly nations. Especially considering the number of unhappy incidents in the recent past, and the many allegations of political pressure and sordid financial oil deals - but they choose not to. What I see is Americans complaining that they choose not to come freely, not demanding they attend. Is there any particular international principle that prevented the persons from coming freely? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/25 "2010-07-29T07:48:33Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I am very confused, it seems that either a) the Scottish Justice System is too be respected and trusted so the verdict is correct and they **need to come to the US to defend the release** ; or 2) the Socttish Justice System is to be respected so their decision to release the prisoner is not worhty of our review and by the way thhey probably convicted the wrong person. (Bolding mine) It matters not, the **whole point** is that, whatever decision they made and for whatever purpose, they most certainly do NOT need to go to the US to justify their decision. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/26 "2010-07-29T07:51:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > It is of course also absurd to claim that an American institution can demand people from another nation to attend a US inquiry. But the requested persons could easily have gone there themselves, freely, as a kind gesture between friendly nations. Especially considering the number of unhappy incidents in the recent past, and the many allegations of political pressure and sordid financial oil deals - but they choose not to. What I see is Americans complaining that they choose not to come freely, not demanding they attend. Is there any particular international principle that prevented the persons from coming freely? It would have been highly inappropriate for them to attend - it would send out a ridiculous message that Britain must answer to the US on sovereign matters. It would have caused national outcry. It was impossible for them to attend and remain electable. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/27 "2010-07-29T12:27:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Would have been just and quite poetic if we had engineered a plane bombing of our own when that terrorist was flying home to Libya. And killed the plane’s crew and everyone else on it at the same time? Your idea of poetic justice is is exactly the sort of insane immorality I expect drove the terrorists who brought down Flight 103. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/28 "2010-07-29T12:30:35Z")
He’s only 13. He’s allowed to talk like a naive, misguided person. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/29 "2010-07-29T15:53:10Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > Would have been just and quite poetic if we had engineered a plane bombing of our own when that terrorist was flying home to Libya. > > And killed the plane’s crew and everyone else on it at the same time? Your idea of poetic justice is is exactly the sort of insane immorality I expect drove the terrorists who brought down Flight 103. They were I believe Libyan military officials not civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/30 "2010-07-29T15:55:42Z")
The whole point is that we don’t _know_ who they were, but it’s unlikely that al-Megrahi was one of them. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/31 "2010-07-29T16:11:53Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They were I believe Libyan military officials not civilians. Which “they” are you referring to, please? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/32 "2010-07-29T16:12:47Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > They were I believe Libyan military officials not civilians. > > Which “they” are you referring to, please? The people on the plane including pilots, guards, and others in the “welcome back” crowd. If it was a civilian plane I of course wouldn’t support bombing it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/33 "2010-07-29T16:25:20Z")
The plane was chartered from Afriqiyah Airways. The company is wholly owned by the Libyan government, so I suppose you could call the airline pilots “Libyan officials”. ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/34 "2010-07-29T16:33:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@jinty](#): > > > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > > > They were I believe Libyan military officials not civilians. > > > > Which “they” are you referring to, please? > > The people on the plane including pilots, guards, and others in the “welcome back” crowd. If it was a civilian plane I of course wouldn’t support bombing it. This, if done, would be morally equivalent to the actual bombing of the Pan-Am jet. Just as evil. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/35 "2010-07-29T16:35:09Z")
Not as evil as letting a dying old man out of prison because you need to spare yourself the embarrassment of letting him be acquitted on appeal, though. That’s positively Hitleresque. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/36 "2010-07-29T19:55:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The people on the plane including pilots, guards, and others in the “welcome back” crowd. If it was a civilian plane I of course wouldn’t support bombing it. No-one called **Curtis LeMay** could possibly have supported the bombing of civilians, it’s egregious that anyone should have suggested otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/37 "2010-07-29T20:51:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If it was a civilian plane I of course wouldn’t support bombing it. Now that’s just slacker-talk. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/38 "2010-07-30T19:23:05Z")
Senator Menendez is an idiot, or possibly grandstanding, which makes him a little less of an idiot but a little more insincere. I hope those officials tell him to fuck off. It’s their law and isn’t so bad, so they shouldn’t have to answer to anyone ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/39 "2010-07-30T19:50:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They were I believe Libyan military officials Oh, right. Innocent non-people. Murder away ! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294/40 "2010-08-10T08:47:12Z")
An idea of Scottish feeling about the matter. Scotland is the Massachusetts of the UK- much more liberal and communitarian than e.g. England. [http://news.stv.tv/scotland/190612-cardinal-defends-release-of-lockerbie-bomber/](http://news.stv.tv/scotland/190612-cardinal-defends-release-of-lockerbie-bomber/) "Scottish Roman Catholic leader attacks US “culture of vengeance” and says releasing Megrahi was the compassionate thing to do. Writing in Scotland on Sunday, Cardinal Keith O’Brien said despite the “gratuitous barbarity” of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi - who the Scottish Government freed last year on compassionate grounds - ministers were right “to affirm our own humanity”. He accused the American justice system of being based on “vengeance and retribution” and said he was glad to live in a country where “justice is tempered with mercy”. Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill freed cancer-stricken Megrahi on August 20 last year. He was given three months to live, but is living with his family in the Libyan capital, Tripoli. The decision caused uproar in the US and among many of the relatives of the 270 people he was convicted of killing in the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103. Cardinal O’Brien said: "In Scotland over many years we have cultivated through our justice system what I hope can be described as a ‘culture of compassion’. “On the other hand, there still exists in many parts of the US, if not nationally, an attitude towards the concept of justice which can only be described as a ‘culture of vengeance’.” He added: “Scotland’s legal system allowed the Scottish justice secretary to release Megrahi on compassionate grounds, following due process and based on clear medical advice.” The religious leader urged US Senators wanting to question Scottish and British government ministers to instead “direct their gaze inwards”. Highlighting the 1226 people executed in the US since 1976, the cardinal added: “Perhaps the consciences of some Americans, especially members of the US Senate, should be stirred by the ways in which ‘justice’ is administered in so many of their own states.” Cardinal O’Brien also backed the decision by First Minister Alex Salmond not to send his ministers to the US for a Senate hearing. “I too believe that Scottish ministers are accountable to the Scottish Parliament and ultimately the Scottish people alone,” he wrote. He concluded: “I believe that only God can forgive and show ultimate compassion to those who commit terrible crimes and I would rather live in a country where justice is tempered by mercy than exist in one where vengeance and retribution are the norm.” The US Senate foreign relations committee wants to investigate speculation that oil giant BP may have had a hand in the release." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-sebate-lockerbie-enquiry-postponed-as-british-ministers-refuse-to-attend/548294.md?page=3)