# US Senate votes to authorize indefinite detentions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778 "2011-12-02T01:54:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/1 "2011-12-02T01:54:09Z")
And not just that. It would: > [@](#): > > …require military custody of a suspect deemed to be a member of al-Qaida or its affiliates and involved in plotting or committing attacks on the United States. American citizens would be exempt. Here’s the part about indefinite detentions: > [@](#): > > The legislation also would give the government the authority to have the military hold an individual suspected of terrorism indefinitely, without a trial. That provision had no exception for a U.S. citizen. [Link.](http://news.yahoo.com/senate-backs-military-custody-terror-suspects-194321101.html) Good on most of the Dems for voting against this (9 voted for) and good on a few Republicans (Rand Paul, anyone?) for voting against, too. I can’t see that this is constitutional (the part about indefinite detention of citizens), in light of [_Hamdi_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld). The vote was 55-45, and I suspect it will pass easily in the (Republican controlled) House. And I don’t like Congress telling the executive branch that the military must be used to detain alleged terrorists, even if this bill does allow the president to waive the requirement on a case-by-case basis. I would be interested in what our resident legal minds have to say about the constitutionality of that part of the proposed bill. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/2 "2011-12-02T01:54:59Z")
A lot good having a Dem-controlled Senate and a Dem president did us. Bah-humbug. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/3 "2011-12-02T01:55:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > A lot good having a Dem-controlled Senate and a Dem president did us. Bah-humbug. Obama says he’ll veto. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/4 "2011-12-02T02:05:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Obama says he’ll veto. We’ll see. He will veto Democrats? What kind of a game is this now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/5 "2011-12-02T02:09:30Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > He will veto Democrats? > > What kind of a game is this now? I don’t see why the president should veto-proof Congress just because the Senate is controlled by his party. And this bill was mostly a Republican bill anyway, if that really matters to you. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/6 "2011-12-02T03:27:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Obama says he’ll veto. We’ll see. Even though he’s threatening to veto it, he apparently refuses to actually make a positive moral stand against it. > [@](#): > > In its veto threat, the White House said it cannot accept any legislation that “challenges or constrains the president’s authorities to collect intelligence, incapacitate dangerous terrorists and protect the nation.” They say he’s refusing to support an attempt to legitimise his government’s authoritarian douchebaggery _because it doesn’t give him enough power_. Even if that’s just a front, I can’t say I respect the White House if they’re too much of a bunch of cowards to even say they can’t accept any legislation that allows for the indefinite incarceration of innocent US citizens without trial. As much as we may mock people for making a stand against neo-Nazis or beating baby seals with clubs, what does it say about someone who refuses to do even that without obfuscating? And I don’t give the Democrats credit for voting against it without knowing whether any of them were voting as a bloc or not. If they can rely on the Republicans to do all the heavy lifting, having half a dozen senators agree to vote for it so that others could maintain the fiction that they oppose it is not beyond the realm of possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/7 "2011-12-02T03:42:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > … I can’t say I respect the White House if they’re too much of a bunch of cowards to even say they can’t accept any legislation that allows for the indefinite incarceration of innocent US citizens without trial. … So you’re happy to accept the indefinite detention of non-citizens without trial? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/8 "2011-12-02T03:59:37Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > So you’re happy to accept the indefinite detention of non-citizens without trial? Of course not. If I was happy with the infinite detention of non-citizens without trial, _I would have said so_. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/9 "2011-12-02T04:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > American citizens are exempted from the mandatory military detention requirement. The legislation also has waivers allowing officials to place a prisoner in the U.S. criminal court system if it is in the interest of national security, but FBI chief Robert Mueller and others have argued that the waiver procedure is too awkward. > > Amid concerns the provisions might impinge on the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens in military custody, the Senate passed an amendment saying nothing in the provisions could be construed to alter Americans’ legal rights. [Senate backs military custody for terror suspects | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-usa-detainees-idUSTRE7B105U20111202) I hope Obama vetoes the entire bill. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/10 "2011-12-02T04:38:06Z")
As it turns out, according to Democratic senator Carl Levin, not only is the Obama administration _not_ opposed to the indefinite incarceration of US citizens without trial, they’re the ones who asked that that be part of the bill! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/11 "2011-12-02T05:12:16Z")
Unfortunately this isn’t really surprising. A lot of us worried that once the precedents had been set, it would really difficult to convince any future administration to voluntarily refuse power. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/12 "2011-12-02T05:43:47Z")
And we all thought Gitmo was an embarrassment. I think I’m abstaining from voting. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/13 "2011-12-02T06:23:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Unfortunately this isn’t really surprising. A lot of us worried that once the precedents had been set, it would really difficult to convince any future administration to voluntarily refuse power. Yes, those Japanese internment camps still haunt us, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/14 "2011-12-02T06:24:03Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I think I’m abstaining from voting. We’re never going to get rid of the scumbags in the Republican and Democratic parties if people like you continue to refuse to vote for anyone else. Don’t abstain and act like that makes you morally superior. Find a third party candidate who isn’t in favour of this sort of behaviour, and vote for them instead. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/15 "2011-12-02T06:42:28Z")
Why would Obama or anyone else care about holding U.S. citizens indefinitely? They assassinate suspect citizens without providing proof. This includes 16 year old children. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/16 "2011-12-02T13:14:26Z")
I’ve been told before that no President would attempt to indefinitely detain or attempt to assassinate a US citizen on US soil, so I’m not going to worry too much about this legislation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/17 "2011-12-02T15:43:56Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > [Senate backs military custody for terror suspects | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-usa-detainees-idUSTRE7B105U20111202) > > I hope Obama vetoes the entire bill. He either vetoes the whole thing or none. He can’t veto just part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/18 "2011-12-02T17:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > In its veto threat, the White House said it cannot accept any legislation that “challenges or constrains the president’s authorities to collect intelligence, incapacitate dangerous terrorists and protect the nation.” I can’t find the text with a superficial Google - did Obama say what it was that he thought constrained his authority? Is it the waiver? I can’t shake the feeling that there is either more, or less, to it than the article says. Obama is supposed to be a Constitutional scholar - does he think this is going to pass Constitutional muster? Why does he think that? There has to be something I am not getting, or is not being discussed. Is this just the creeping tendency of a President to grab for more and more authority? Or what? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/19 "2011-12-02T18:22:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Why would Obama or anyone else care about holding U.S. citizens indefinitely? Killing is fun, sure, but it’s even more fun to send them to some tropical hellhole for um, enhanced interrogation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778/20 "2011-12-02T18:28:10Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Yes, those Japanese internment camps still haunt us, don’t they? I really tried to avoid pointing the finger here. But c’mon let’s face the facts, we all know which presidential administration we have to thank for this. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-senate-votes-to-authorize-indefinite-detentions/604778.md?page=2)