# US: Separation of Church and State **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011 "2008-10-22T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/41 "2008-10-22T23:27:07Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > This. > Separation of Church and State does _not_ mean that we’re supposed to be non-religious people, or that it’s wrong to want religious people in power. It does mean that what those people in power are able to enact as law with regards to religion is limited. Amen. And you saved me some typing. ---
**Author:** ![placebo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@placebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/placebo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/42 "2008-10-23T00:52:58Z")
Check out the [Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html) sometime. Specifically, the preamble. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/43 "2008-10-23T02:00:22Z")
If a candidate for anything in this country admitted, or more probably was exposed as, an atheist, there would be nothing else about him that would matter in the least. He could be the ideal candidate in every other way, but there isn’t a chance in hell that he would get elected. This is very near to the OP, I feel. And I do think that sucks. I hate that we have to listen to freak-shows telling us that “God chose me to be president” with a straight face, but an atheist is automatically unqualified for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/44 "2008-10-23T02:45:09Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If a candidate for anything in this country admitted, or more probably was exposed as, an atheist, there would be nothing else about him that would matter in the least. He could be the ideal candidate in every other way, but there isn’t a chance in hell that he would get elected. > **[America’s top two elected atheists – Michael Nugent](https://www.michaelnugent.com/2008/06/02/americas-top-two-elected-atheists/)** Not a lot, but enough to show your assumption doesn’t always hold. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/45 "2008-10-23T02:55:14Z")
Aren’t you the cat that boldly declared that if god didn’t smite you on your timetable he didn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/46 "2008-10-23T03:02:34Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Aren’t you the cat that boldly declared that if god didn’t smite you on your timetable he didn’t exist? My bad, that was **Valteron**. This was so much his style that I was momentarily confused. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/47 "2008-10-23T03:06:03Z")
> [@anya\_marie](#): > > :rolleyes: Not all of us are insanely religious. But you at least have to pretend to be if you want to get elected. ---
**Author:** ![Jesus\_Harold\_Christ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f14d63/32.png) [@Jesus\_Harold\_Christ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesus_Harold_Christ)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/48 "2008-10-23T04:10:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What I think happened, is that by forbidding a state religion, America forced religion to be more subtle, less brutal. Europe spent centuries fighting religious wars, centuries with religions crushing people down, torturing and murdering with impunity because they and the state were essentially one. In Europe, religion was more free to show it’s true face; the face of a brutal, sadistic, mass murdering lunatic. > > In America, religion was forced to pretend to be more civilized; not being so firmly in control of the state, much less identical with it, it couldn’t just round up and kill all opposition, or rely on the government to do so for it. It was forced to use propaganda and corruption and indoctrination and intimidation much of the time, rather than naked force. In America religion has been forced to wear a mask over it’s true face. But that face is still there; America is full of good Christians who’d love to tear down the Constitution and begin the torture and slaughter. It is worth noting that historically the 1st amendment was not seen as forbiding a state religion for a state only the federal government. In fact the “respecting an establishment” language was seen as protecting official state churches from the feds. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/49 "2008-10-23T04:43:08Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > What’s the problem, **Leaffan**? We know that among Western democracies, the United States is one where religion takes a lot of space in the public sphere. It’s part of their culture. But they’re not unique in this regard, even Canada isn’t blind to religion. > > Why does this bother you, especially that you don’t even live there? The hypocrisy of the US condemning other countries for their fundamentalist attitude towards religion bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/50 "2008-10-23T04:52:24Z")
Although John McCain courted a fundamentalist crowd at one of the universities and Obama’s membership in a particular congregation made headlines, I don’t think that either candidate has made a big issue of his religious faith. Neither has either of the VP candidates although Palin does have a fundamentalist background that has been of some interest to the media and probably is the source for many of her views on the issues. The denomination that Obama belongs to is actually a very inclusive, non-radical and service-centered group. And McCain isn’t a fundamentalist either. It would be easy for non-Americans to be persuaded that what they see on television in the way of religious programing is representative of the Christian beliefs of Americans. It is not. Nor are **Der Trihs’s** overly suspicious views of American Christians typical of atheists and agnostics. Even mainstream Christians become weary of religious pushiness. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/51 "2008-10-23T04:56:28Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > The hypocrisy of the US condemning other countries for their fundamentalist attitude towards religion bothers me. How is it hypocrisy for a nation with a separation between church and state to criticize those that don’t? ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/52 "2008-10-23T05:49:25Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, that’s why there needs to be a strong, high wall of separation between Church and State in the US. I agree with this. I also support the building of a similar wall between the United States and Canada. Also, using the OP’s logic, no one cares about religion in America either. I personally don’t know what Obama or McCain’s religions are, apart from that they’re some kind of christians. I don’t know or care, thus no one does. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/53 "2008-10-23T06:15:58Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > I personally don’t know what Obama or McCain’s religions are, apart from that they’re some kind of christians. I don’t know or care, thus no one does. No, no, didn’t you hear? Obama’s a Muslim! :eek: Please don’t kill me. As a sidenote, I didn’t feel as well informed as I should have been for the Canadian elections a couple weeks ago, and I most certainly _did_ know about Harper’s religion. Heck, there have been some multi-page news articles about the matter – the information is clearly there and important. Nor do I see how voters avoiding him for his religion have any point of superiority over the “for” voters. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/54 "2008-10-23T06:34:37Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > No, no, didn’t you hear? Obama’s a Muslim! :eek: > Please don’t kill me. I do know about Obama’s former pastor, of course, but all the quotes I heard were either political or racial. So I don’t really know anything about his religious views. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/55 "2008-10-23T06:44:30Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > I do know about Obama’s former pastor, of course, but all the quotes I heard were either political or racial. So I don’t really know anything about his religious views. That’s a, um, very serious response, given the comment it addresses. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/56 "2008-10-23T06:49:51Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > That’s a, um, very serious response, given the comment it addresses. I was really just continuing on with my other post and linked to your post as you linked to mine, just to show a connection. It was not meant to imply anything about what you said. Give me a break, I’m tired and it made sense to me at the time.😉 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/57 "2008-10-23T12:39:22Z")
> [@Jesus\_Harold\_Christ](#): > > It is worth noting that historically the 1st amendment was not seen as forbiding a state religion for a state only the federal government. In fact the “respecting an establishment” language was seen as protecting official state churches from the feds. That’s not quite as clear cut as you might think. There’s a whole argument over incorporation that claims the Bill of Rights was intended to be a bar on all governmental action from all levels of government. I don’t know were I stand on that - I haven’t read enough of it. But even if the Bill of Rights was only a federal bar, it isn’t any more. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/58 "2008-10-23T13:36:02Z")
I’m really getting worn out by this bullshit. You don’t like America and how we do things, that’s cool, no one is forcing it down your throat, but instead of minding your own, you seek out the wildest of the possible opinions and paint all of America and all Americans with the same yellow brush. I’m sick of it. If you don’t like us, then don’t like us and keep it to your fucking self. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/59 "2008-10-23T13:52:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [America’s top two elected atheists – Michael Nugent](http://www.michaelnugent.com/2008/06/02/americas-top-two-elected-atheists/) > > Not a lot, but enough to show your assumption doesn’t always hold. Well, I do tend to hyperbolize, but still … one congressman and one state senator does not a precedent make. Do you think we’d see the same sort of leeway given a presidential candidate? Imagine if either McCain or Obama gave a speech this afternoon in which they said, “In my heart of hearts, I’m a atheist,” … in any context. You’d see the polls flip like a Wallenda. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011/60 "2008-10-23T17:05:15Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Man, I wish we could go back to when Thomas Jefferson was President _and attended Sunday Services in the Congressional Hall._ > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why? I’m also curious why you wish this, **FriarTed**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-separation-of-church-and-state/469011.md?page=4)