US: Separation of Church and State

[Cat_Whisperer]

@kidchameleon

How is it hypocrisy for a nation with a separation between church and state to criticize those that don’t?

Because you don’t actually have separation in real practice. Your religion gets all over your state. That’s kind of the point of this thread.

I agree that if either candidate was anything but a non-threatening brand of Christian, they would lose horrifically. You’ll see a female president long before you’ll see a non-Christian president in the US.

ETA: I don’t actually dislike the US. My long association here has softened my stance on the US and its citizens considerably. You guys don’t exactly represent the average US American, though.

[Tom_Tildrum]

@Jack_Batty

If a candidate for anything in this country admitted, or more probably was exposed as, an atheist, there would be nothing else about him that would matter in the least. He could be the ideal candidate in every other way, but there isn’t a chance in hell that he would get elected.

This is very near to the OP, I feel. And I do think that sucks. I hate that we have to listen to freak-shows telling us that “God chose me to be president” with a straight face, but an atheist is automatically unqualified for anything.

Could an openly religious candidate get elected in Canada?

I don’t mean that as a retort; I’m actually curious.

[straight_man]

@Tom_Tildrum

Could an openly religious candidate get elected in Canada?

I don’t mean that as a retort; I’m actually curious.

Yeah, Harper’s a member of a quite conservative denomination of Christianity. For all the OP’s bitching, Canada still has a significant and politically active Christian population.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@straight_man

Yeah, Harper’s a member of a quite conservative denomination of Christianity. For all the OP’s bitching, Canada still has a significant and politically active Christian population.

We do, but religion is considered private here. Making someone’s religion a talking point in an election would be extremely gauche.

[Jack_Batty]

@featherlou

Making someone’s religion a talking point in an election would be extremely gauche.

Which is ironic, for doesn’t “gauche” translate from French into “left”?

[Algher]

@featherlou

Because you don’t actually have separation in real practice. Your religion gets all over your state. That’s kind of the point of this thread.

That is fine. Religion is fine when it gets all over our State, since our people have religion. What we try to prevent is the State getting all over our religion. This is constantly misunderstood (willfully or foolishly, I am not sure) by those who are anti-religion. The US Constitution specifically states that the Government is to stay out of Religion.

The entire phrase, “Separation of Church and State” comes from a letter from Tom “Sally? Does she work for me?” Jefferson where he was reassuring a bunch of Baptists:

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

Baptists in that era were looked at with some negativity, due to their habit of preaching with no education (every man a preacher), and their habit of preaching to slaves and Native Americans.

[FriarTed]

@Revtim

I’m also curious why you wish this, FriarTed.

I was being ironic. “Mr. Separationist Deist Editor-of-the-New-Testament” saw no problem with Sunday Services being held in the Congressional Hall, and attended them himself (and when questioned about it since he was not an orthodox believer, said that he still thought it set a good example for people.) Now, any religious aspect in the public square is thought to be an egregious violation of the Constitution.

For the record, I do not actually wish Sunday Services were held in the Congressional Hall, although I would have little problem if they were.

[Anne_Neville]

@FriarTed

For the record, I do not actually wish Sunday Services were held in the Congressional Hall, although I would have little problem if they were.

Would you have as little of a problem with Keith Ellison holding Muslim Friday prayers there, or Joe Lieberman holding Saturday Shabbat services there?

[Revenant_Threshold]

@FriarTed

I was being ironic. “Mr. Separationist Deist Editor-of-the-New-Testament” saw no problem with Sunday Services being held in the Congressional Hall, and attended them himself (and when questioned about it since he was not an orthodox believer, said that he still thought it set a good example for people.) Now, any religious aspect in the public square is thought to be an egregious violation of the Constitution.

I think that may be something of an exageration, given the amount of times God seems to pop up in the State of the Union, and at this particular point in time the campaign speeches of the candidates, and i’ve tended not to hear people claim this as an act of unconstitutionality.

For the record, I do not actually wish Sunday Services were held in the Congressional Hall, although I would have little problem if they were.

Actually, my question still remains, if flipped - why don’t you wish Sunday Services were held in the Congressional Hall?

[FriarTed]

@Revenant_Threshold

I think that may be something of an exageration, given the amount of times God seems to pop up in the State of the Union, and at this particular point in time the campaign speeches of the candidates, and i’ve tended not to hear people claim this as an act of unconstitutionality. Actually, my question still remains, if flipped - why don’t you wish Sunday Services were held in the Congressional Hall?

I don’t wish for Sun Services to be held in the Congressional Hall because- in this day & age, it would just be too controversial, and also, there are probably quite enough churches & venues for large scale services in the D.C. area. I would imagine one of the reasons for the services back then was that it was one of the few, if not the only place, that could host a massive crowd.
Although if those services were held, I would not have problem with Islamic, Jewish or other non-C’tian services as long as they did not interfere with times of Congressional business. What time of day are Islamic Friday services held? I know Jewish Sabbath services are Friday evening. I don’t know if any Jewish groups actually hold Saturday services.

[Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes]

Well, it’s because a politician who stands up and goes: “Religion is fine and all if you want to believe in it, but really it’s completely unsubstantiated and I think god has no part in policy” is more likely to get lynched than elected. Never underestimate the power of zeal.

Yeah, it’s fucking stupid. Look, assholes, if you want to be moral; that’s great! Can we separate morals from the hypocritical clusterfuck of hate that is Catholicism?

tl;dr: Word. Not all of us are morons, though. We just don’t run for office.

[gonzomax]

@Leaffan

Religion never, ever, ever, comes into politics here. We just elected a new Prime Minister. I have absolutely no idea what Steven Harper’s religious beliefs are. Who cares? Why should that matter at all? I know his taxation and business policies. I know his stance on carbon emissions and fiscal restraint. He’s a hockey fan. Why do I care what deity (or lack thereof) he prays to?

Because he can not be a proper human if he worships the wrong god. Of course The Flying Spaghetti Monster knows all things. He knows if you were an American you would worship properly.
In America we worship God the dollar, god the cent and the holy bank account. We go to war for money. We vote by money . We just do not like to admit it.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@FriarTed

I don’t wish for Sun Services to be held in the Congressional Hall because- in this day & age, it would just be too controversial, and also, there are probably quite enough churches & venues for large scale services in the D.C. area. I would imagine one of the reasons for the services back then was that it was one of the few, if not the only place, that could host a massive crowd.
Although if those services were held, I would not have problem with Islamic, Jewish or other non-C’tian services as long as they did not interfere with times of Congressional business. What time of day are Islamic Friday services held? I know Jewish Sabbath services are Friday evening. I don’t know if any Jewish groups actually hold Saturday services.

Thanks for the answer. I suspect it’s probably one i’d agree with.

[Cat_Whisperer]

One of the reasons for separation of church and state is simply logistic; once you start holding Christian services in public buildings (like a Congressional Hall), then you could logically be expected to hold Jewish services, Muslim services, Buddhist services, Zoroastrian services, Wiccan services, Rastafarian services, Shinto services, Hindu services, Jainist services, Taoist services, Pagan services, etc. Sure the US is nominally a Christian nation, but why should the buildings that are for all US Americans be used only for one sect’s religious observations? What is everyone else, chopped liver? Isn’t it bad enough for everyone who isn’t a Christian to know their religion makes them a second-class citizen without rubbing their noses in it?

[5-HT]

@featherlou

We do, but religion is considered private here. Making someone’s religion a talking point in an election would be extremely gauche.

How many European countries do you think would elect a Muslim leader, right now?

[Anne_Neville]

@FriarTed

I know Jewish Sabbath services are Friday evening. I don’t know if any Jewish groups actually hold Saturday services.

Most synagogues have a Saturday morning service.

[Gukumatz]

@Boyo_Jim

I’m coming around to the notion that the US ought to declare an offical Christian state religion. Then it will fuck it up so bad that the ranks of atheists will swell enormously.

I’m basing this on Europe. So many of the countries have state-sponsored religions, but their populations are far more secular than the US. I’m not sure why this is, but I’m guessing that state sponsorship is a huge turnoff to religious faith.

So if we want to get serious about promoting atheism, nothing beats a shitty official religion.

Ding, ding, ding!

Also known as “pulling a Norway.”

ETA: The last sitting government, the Bondevik II, (Bondevik I asked a “chamber question” and honorably left when they got a no) was Christian, but I think most people counted that against them

[Boyo_Jim]

@Gukumatz

Ding, ding, ding!

Also known as “pulling a Norway.”

ETA: The last sitting government, the Bondevik II, (Bondevik I asked a “chamber question” and honorably left when they got a no) was Christian, but I think most people counted that against them

Care to expand on this? I know very little about Europe, but it seems like so many coutries subsidize a religion to some extent, yet their populations remain largely, er… unfaithful. I don’t know why one of 2 things doesn’t happen. Either more people should be outwordly religious, or more people should be protesting the amount of money the state is wasting on propping up an official faith.