# US shooting at civilians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884 "2003-04-29T11:01:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/41 "2003-04-30T20:12:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*There is one theory that the whole thing stemmed from tragic overreaction to the tradition of protesters firing guns **into the air** - which panicked US troops even though no one was actually aiming at them. \*\* I know there is a cultural misunderstanding prevalent in this situation but someone has got to tell these Iraqis that throwing stones at tanks and firing automatic weapons is not quaranteed in their constitution. Oh, and someone may want to clue them to the fact that they dont _have_ a constitution. While theyre at it, they may want to inform anyone planning an armed anti-american demonstration that any weapons fire will likely result in the death of the one who fired the weapon and quite possible injuring (or killing) anyone in his immediate vicinity. I would think these safety tips would be mandatory reading in “How to really hate the Americans without getting yourself (or your friends and family) Killed” handbook. Look, Iraqi dudes. If Saddam was still functioning. Youre little olympic throwing technique could get you a long stint in the Iraqi regular army as a minesweeper, canon fodder or dud bomb inspector. As it is, the americans are allowing you to vent whatever frustrations you may have. Say what you want to say but drop the stones and guns. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/42 "2003-04-30T20:20:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > those “innocent civilians” were toting AK47s, and firing them". > > Those are the facts. Hmmm, no. Those are _not_ established facts. That is what some US military say happened and other sources say otherwise. And seeing how many lies we’ve been hearing from the US government lately I am inclined to take their declaration with a substantial amount of salt. In any case, that is not the point. The point is not so much who is at fault but the fact that governing the occupied Iraq is not the walk in the park the US government had predicted. It is turning out to be much more problematic. Now _there’s_ a “fact” for you. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/43 "2003-04-30T20:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > The point is not so much who is at fault but the fact that governing the occupied Iraq is not the walk in the park the US government had predicted. It is turning out to be much more problematic. Now _there’s_ a “fact” for you. Please provide a cite for where the US government said that governing post-Saddam Iraq would be a walk in the park. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/44 "2003-04-30T20:30:43Z")
Please provide a cite to show that anyone in the Bush administration (or anyone that stupid) that predicted that the US ever intended to _occupy_ Iraq or that governing it would be a “walk in the park”. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/45 "2003-04-30T20:31:52Z")
dang! a minute late! OK Mojo you win! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/46 "2003-04-30T20:36:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\* > Palestinians do this practically everyday. They have terrorists go over to Israel, blow themselves up in a crowded area and they cant understand why tanks come down their street the next day. > \*\* At the risk of side-tracking this thread, I find it amusing that many people–especially those labeled “unpatriotic”–have noticed the same thing regarding Americans. The US government does bad, stupid things all over the world and then we wonder why 9/11 happens or why other people hate us so much. Obviously Palestinians aren’t the only ones lacking in self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/47 "2003-04-30T20:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Please provide a cite to show that anyone in the Bush administration (or anyone that stupid) that predicted that the US ever intended to _occupy_ Iraq or that governing it would be a “walk in the park”. \*\* The USA _is_ occupying Iraq. For how long we don’t know but that is already happening so I am not sure what you mean. regarding the “walk in the park”, the phrase is mine (obviously) but it does reflect the many declarations of Lord Rumsfeld and Co. (not to mention countless posts in this board) which predicted Iraqis would welcome the Americans with open arms. Or were we talking about different “arms”? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/48 "2003-04-30T20:55:57Z")
Could you a) provide a cite, and b) not use loaded language like “Lord Rumsfeld & Co.” in GD? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/49 "2003-04-30T20:57:15Z")
Well, X-slayer, not exactly- thsoes kinds of shenanigans would not have been treated so lightly. Thy likely would have been taken by the Iraqi secret police, and subjected to physical tortures of the most horrible & sadistic kind, while their wives & children were gang-raped in front of them. And, no- I am not exagerating, or this wasn’t a single isolated case. Torture & rape were common everyday occurances. Sailor- I am sorry but several of the Iraqi dudes there admitted they had AK47s and they were being fired. The fact not in agreement is whether or not shots were being aimed at the Americans- and here I’d guess they were both right- that most of the demonstrators were simply firing their guns into the air, but that some die-hard somewhere did take a few shots at our guys. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/50 "2003-04-30T21:10:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmmm, no. Those are _not_ established facts. That is what some US military say happened and other sources say otherwise. And seeing how many lies we’ve been hearing from the US government lately I am inclined to take their declaration with a substantial amount of salt. And news sources have been any better throughout the war? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/51 "2003-04-30T21:12:09Z")
This is where this whole point of conflict stems from. Information. Perception of information and misinformation. Some would label this semmantics but you have to look deeper. The US is not occupying Iraq. Occupation means we are there to stay, we will use the lands resources strictly for the benefit of US. resources would include humans. If the US were really occupying Iraq, people would either be working or staying in controlled areas, which would either be their homes or in jails. If you want to see Iraq being occupied you would have to look at it 2 months ago. Saddam Occupied Iraq. The US has stated that once Iraq has its own stable govt it will leave. It has not given any indications (thus far) that it does not intend to do just that. It seems to me a repressed people does not become a free thinking sophisticated democratic group of individuals overnight just because a force liberated them. The Iraqis are exhibiting their fallability to Saddams regime. They believe anything that anyone will tell them so long as it is from someone of authority. Clerics, instigators, self proclaimed mayors, arab heroes are very believeble to them. I dont see why not. They ben brough up this way for decades, you cant just instantly deprogram what has become a survival instinct. So far they need a strong authority to lead them and the US is not a credible option. This is where the misinformation and mistrust stems from. What they know about the US is what was told to them and even if they were outright lies, it is still believable. Iraq has welcomed the US with open arms. That was thursday 2 weeks ago, i think. Honeymoons over. Lord Rummy may make the idea sound simple, but no one ever said that it would be easy or be done in a short time. The fact is, the faster Iraq makes a govt theat everyone in Iraq is acceptable to (even grudgingly) the faster the US can get the hell out of there. If this violence becomes widespread, expect more troops to pour in. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/52 "2003-04-30T21:12:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I am sorry but several of the Iraqi dudes there admitted they had AK47s and they were being fired. since I haven’t heard that I figure I might as well ask for the link before **Sailor** does… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/53 "2003-04-30T21:12:55Z")
Here’s an interview with Rumsfeld from february 21th. It’s quite inconclusive to the matters discussed (Rumsfeld dodges these issues quite skillfully), but nevertheless an interesting read in retrospect… [http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text2003/0221rmfd.htm](http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text2003/0221rmfd.htm) > [@](#): > > Lehrer: Do you expect the invasion, if it comes, to be welcomed by the majority of the civilian population of Iraq? > > Rumsfeld: There’s obviously the Shi’a population in Iraq and the Kurdish population in Iraq have been treated very badly by Saddam Hussein’s regime, they represent a large fraction of the total. There is no question but that they would be welcomed. Go back to Afghanistan, the people were in the streets playing music, cheering, flying kites, and doing all the things that the Taliban and the al-Qaeda would not let them do. Saddam Hussein has one of the most vicious regimes on the face of the earth. And the people know that. > > Now, is there a risk when that dictatorial system isn’t there that there could be conflicts between elements within the country, get even type things, yes. And we’ve got to be careful to see that that doesn’t happen. > > Lehrer: What about just the basic idea that they’ve been told for years that the Americans are the infidels. I mean, it would be like welcoming Hitler into Chicago if he had taken over. I mean, is that not — > > Rumsfeld: Jim. > > Lehrer: No, no, I’m just saying, we’re the enemy. > > Rumsfeld: My goodness. That’s a terrible thought. > > Lehrer: I know, I know. But isn’t that — > > Rumsfeld: If a politician had said that, they’d get in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/54 "2003-04-30T21:20:29Z")
Well, I read it in todays San Jose Mercury News- which is staunchly antiwar. But if no one else comes up with a link, I’ll find one. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/55 "2003-04-30T21:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _Slayer_ > Please provide a cite to show that anyone in the Bush administration (or anyone that stupid) that predicted that the US ever intended to occupy Iraq or that governing it would be a “walk in the park”. There were certainly some wishful thinking floating around back then… > **[Over in six days](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/30/iraq4)** > > Who said what on the speed of the war in Iraq. > [@](#): > > ‘I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators … The read we get on the people of Iraq is there’s no question but that they want to get rid of Saddam Hussein.’ > US Vice-President Dick Cheney, 16 March > > ‘Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped for liberators.’ > Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy US Defence Secretary, 11 March, 2002 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/56 "2003-04-30T21:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > The US is not occupying Iraq. Occupation means we are there to stay, we will use the lands resources strictly for the benefit of US. resources would include humans. can you tell me where you live that this is the meaning of the word? Because Websters online seems to agree with my interpretation: > [@](#): > > occupation: the holding and control of an area by a foreign military force I cannot find and have never heard your interpretation. And the idea that they hate the Americans because they are brainwashed or misinformed is silly. No one likes to be occupied by a foreign country, I don’'t care if they are the nicest people in the world. Or can you see any circumstances where Americans would like to be invaded? ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/57 "2003-04-30T22:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Or can you see any circumstances where Americans would like to be invaded? Sweedish Bikini Team? sorry 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/58 "2003-04-30T22:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sgt. J \* > \*\*Sweedish Bikini Team? > sorry 🙂 \*\* Well, then you’d have about half the population clearly delighted and the other half demonstrating daily in protest. As you can see, you cannot please everyone _\__ ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/59 "2003-04-30T23:16:29Z")
I know that Sweden can spare at least one bikini inspector… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/60 "2003-05-01T01:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*can you tell me where you live that this is the meaning of the word? Because Websters online seems to agree with my interpretation: I cannot find and have never heard your interpretation. > > And the idea that they hate the Americans because they are brainwashed or misinformed is silly. No one likes to be occupied by a foreign country, I don’'t care if they are the nicest people in the world. Or can you see any circumstances where Americans would like to be invaded? \*\* Why is it a silly idea to say they are brainwashed or misinformed. You live in a country with free press, cable, and the internet? They don’t. Many of the Islamic countries have “ministries of virtue”. Not meaning to insult you but how much more thought control can you get. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884.md?page=4)