# US shooting at civilians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884 "2003-04-29T11:01:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![futureman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3da27b/32.png) [@futureman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/futureman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/81 "2003-05-02T00:49:24Z")
here’s the real problem: It makes no difference wheter there is any reasoning for the killing that is going on. Everything that goes wrong is going to be our fault, rightly or wrongly. We knew that before going in. Or at least we should have known. We’d better hope that things get better or else the liberated won’t be so nice anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/82 "2003-05-02T02:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*France NEVER denied there could be WMD. Its official position was that it had to be proven, and that inspections should be conducted to search for them and eventually destroy them if they were found. I don’t think the French government took any official position about the existence of such weapons. > Apart from the official position, I gather from what I read at this time that the french government believed there was some WMD, in limited quantity, and for the most part not usable (not maintened, too old, etc…), and absolutely no nuclear weapons or current programm which could result in their production in the foreseeable future, hence that from this point of view, the Iraki government wasn’t a threat, not even for its neighbors, let alone for Europe or the US. \*\* OK, Chirac may not have used the word “never” when giving his opions on the WMD. He did say he would never approve a war with Iraq. He wanted the inspections to continue with no end date. I would point out that France sold Iraq a nuclear power plant. This is a country with the the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world. The former head of Iraq’s nuclear program said they had a working weapon, minus the uranium. Put the 2 events together. Before Saddam “won” the first mother-of-all-battles France was their number 1 arms dealer. I don’t recall the figure but I think it represented 40% of French arms sales in the early 80’s. The French press even refer to him as Chiraq because of this. I will not lay the developement of WMD at the foot of France because the last 50 years was a revolving door for all industrialized countries. It would be nice if there was a little more (any) cooperation to undue the damage. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/83 "2003-05-02T07:02:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*Oh, sorry, only a partial contribution to the restructuring and rebuilding of Germany. So Where do I send the bill for the Berlin Air Lift? We could use the money to bring back our dead soldiers from France and Germany. By the way, the Berlin Airlift was more complex logistically than landing on the moon. > \*\* I hate to break it to you, but the Berlin air lift was long after the reconstruction. I hate to break it to you, but the US has received plenty of money, both through acquiring market leadership in many fields due to the Marshall Plan, and by being paid back by Germany. Sorry, ignorance on your part is not an argument. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Lets see, the Vietnam War was a present from France (who ran away), and the Korean War was a present from the UN. Maybe we should have allowed the Russians and the Chinese to take over Asia. \*\* Maybe you should acquire some basic history education. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I guess it’s OK when we’re Europe’s police dog. The Serbian war was total BS. Kosovo was not a Muslim enclave in the early 70’s. It didn’t exist until Tito carved the area out of Serbia to weaken their political power. He then INVITED Albanian Muslims to hop the fence and make themselves at home. \*\* _groan_ Yes, and the moon is flat. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Yes, Halliburton will be PAID for their SERVICES from the sale of oil. These are services that could not be contracted for at the end of the war. There is no government to DO the contracting. > \*\* Sorry, but that’s a violation of international law. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The Iraqis will eventually get to choose whom they buy their services from. > \*\* You mean from which US company. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Hopefully they won’t be buying anymore nuclear power plants from France, or bio-weapons equipment from Germany. > \*\* You are confusing something. They bought dual-use equopment from Germany that could be used for chemical weapons. The key to their bioweapons program was the US. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And yes, the US did NOT ask to be made custodian of Iraqi oil. Why WOULD we, we ARE the custodian’s! > \*\* Too bad you don’t have the bank account, hm? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Is the UN planning on doing all the hard work ahead? Is France? Is Germany? NO, NO and NO. France is blocking the lifting of Iraqi oil restrictions until there is verification that there aren’t any WMD. Is this the same France that denied the WMD existed? \*\* Thanks for demonstrating that you have merely propaganda to spread. France never denied that WMDs existed. I suggest you acquire a bit of background knowledge, rather than trying to prove that you are a rabid nationalist in complete ignorance of what he is talking about. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It takes real gall for France and Germany to object to the war, demand the US fix the Iraqi government, and then try to get contracts through UN intervention. \*\* Not half as much as claiming the war is sanctioned by the UN and then try to lock out the UN from the rebuilding process while trying to sack and steal Iraqi resources and turn the country into an economic colony of the US. Not half as much galls as breaking almost any body of international law there is, including the Geneva Conventions, and claiming to be the good guys, and that there is a profound difference between which government it is which ignores UN resolutions and international treaties. I would suggest rather than professing to have no idea what the f\*\*k you are talking about, you actually inform yourself a bit better. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/84 "2003-05-02T07:06:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*OK, Chirac may not have used the word “never” when giving his opions on the WMD. > > He did say he would never approve a war with Iraq. He wanted the inspections to continue with no end date. > \*\* Both blatantly false. [quote] \*\* I would point out that France sold Iraq a nuclear power plant. This is a country with the the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world. The former head of Iraq’s nuclear program said they had a working weapon, minus the uranium. Put the 2 events together. \*\*/quote] I would point out that that was long ago, at a time the US was providing them with bioweapons capable anthrax and Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam. A lot of these sales happened because the US lobbied for them. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Before Saddam “won” the first mother-of-all-battles France was their number 1 arms dealer. I don’t recall the figure but I think it represented 40% of French arms sales in the early 80’s. The French press even refer to him as Chiraq because of this. \*\* Again, such sales happened not the least due to US pressure. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I will not lay the developement of WMD at the foot of France because the last 50 years was a revolving door for all industrialized countries. It would be nice if there was a little more (any) cooperation to undue the damage. \*\* It would be nice is there was a bit more of cooperation, yes. But as long as one country thinks it knows how to do so better than the entire rest of the world, I doubt anything productive will arise. Quite the contrary, it is already now evident, that rather than undoing damage, a new race towards nuclear weapons has been started. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/85 "2003-05-02T14:50:34Z")
**Iraqis vow revenge as hatred of US grows** > [@](#): > > Hatred of the Americans is boiling on the streets of Falluja, where Iraqis lobbed grenades into the US military compound yesterday, wounding seven and damaging vehicles. > > All over the town were banners calling on the Americans to go, while local people shook their fists at foreigners, vowing to take revenge. > > Outside the mayor’s office, which is next to the American compound, staff had hung an uncompromising banner: “Sooner or later, US killers, we will kick you out.” > > According to the mayor, Taha Bedeiwi, who is recognised by the US forces, 20 people have been shot dead by the Americans so far - 16 in a late-night incident on Monday and four more when a US convoy clashed with stone-throwing demonstrators on Wednesday. [The Telegraph](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05/02/wirq02.xml/) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884/86 "2003-05-04T11:00:59Z")
The problem with this is that when shit happens the US troops lie their way out of it and the explanations may serve to cover up the shit with the US government and the US public but how are you going to convince the Iraqis that what they saw with their eyes did not happen? As this article says, it is like rubbing salt into the wounds. > [@](#): > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2982389.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2982389.stm) > Iraqis reject US explanations > Lieutenant Colonel Jack Kammerer is on a mission to “explain and offer help” to the people of Hai al-Muallimin, but it doesn’t seem to be going very well. > . . . . > Amid the crowds and the rubble, little Abbas is crying inconsolably. He lost both his parents in the disaster. “What are the Americans doing? It’s two kilometres from Hai al-Muallimin to the nearest district, and they are exploding weapons between us. Is that normal?” the boy’s uncle, Hisham, asks. > . . . . . > No one in Hai al-Muallimin believes the US explanation that Iraqis caused the blasts. They think it was probably an accident caused by the Americans, who they say have been carrying out at least three controlled explosions a day here - usually at 0800, 1400 and 1700 - for the past two weeks. Three days earlier, they said, village representatives had demanded that the Americans should stop the blasts, which they feared were too close to their homes. “They ignored us, saying they took orders only from their military superiors, not from Iraqis like us,” Hisham says. > . . . . > I later showed my photographs of Saturday’s blasts to a Western security consultant with explosives expertise currently working in Baghdad. He found it hard to believe that simple flares could have caused the tragedy in Zafaranya, in which at least 12 people are thought to have been killed. "The debris at the epicentre is consistent with a powerful high explosive blast whose shockwave triggered what we call sympathetic explosions in nearby munitions. "If you’d asked me to cause that using flares, I’d have been stumped. High explosives are not that volatile to be detonated with flares. But you could do it with a hand grenade or a mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-shooting-at-civilians/171884.md?page=4)