# US Soldiers killing Afghani civilians. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493 "2012-03-11T21:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/121 "2012-03-14T16:48:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I am getting a little fed up with the double standard. How many of our guys were killed less than two weeks ago over a mistake in disposing of a religious document? A lot of those shooters were either Afghan Police or Military that we’ve been working with. Guys that are supposed to be on our side. > . Why on earth do you imagine they are on ‘our’ side? We’re not on theirs. They are on their own side and this being Afghanistan there’s no telling what side that might be. Tribal, family, clan, ethnicity, religion, Taleban, Al Q. Who knows but they certainly are not on ‘our side’. You might not have noticed but ‘our Afghans’ have been up in arms for years over our casual attitude to civilian casualties, our refusal to hand over prisoners, our refusal to stop night raids, our unwillingness to turn a complete blind eye to their kleptomaniac looting, our bizarre insistence that women aren’t chattel etc etc etc. All ‘our’ afghans want is to be top of the pile with their snouts in the trough. We delude ourselves if we think they have any interest whatsoever in anything else. As soon as we go they’ll switch sides so often it’ll make your head spin. ‘Our’ Afghans are simply the brutal, corrupt Northern Warlords who were so vile the Taliban, ‘The Army of Scholars’, seemed like the Good Guys at the time they won the civil war. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/122 "2012-03-15T20:44:19Z")
Leon panetta dropped in for a pep talk. All of the US soldiers in attendence were required to be disarmed. Imagine what would happen if the Taliban showed up? Meanwhile, we plan to move the suspect (in the killings) out of the country. Lets pour MORE gasoline on the fire! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/123 "2012-03-15T21:05:06Z")
They stated they moved him to Kuwait because they lacked the appropriate facilities to hold him in Afghanistan. I’m **hoping** since they have already said they will hold the trial in Afghanistan they still do that, they can always move him back when it’s time to conduct the actual trial. In other news, Karzai has requested our soldiers disengage from the countryside and hide away in our bases, effectively removing us from day-to-day security responsibilities. Some people take this as evidence of a deteriorating relationship and a “bad thing.” The way I see it, Afghanistan isn’t our responsibility. If they want us to back off, I’m all for it, I’m all for an accelerated withdrawal too. Our goal when we went into Afghanistan was supposed to be disrupting its ability to be a safe haven for Al-Qaeda. I’d say that goal was achieved as much as it ever was going to be a long, long time ago. Other than that, we can always use drones and air strikes to attack any terror camps that pop up after the fact. The Taliban is not interested in carrying out attacks on the West, so why should we care if they take a chunk of Afghanistan for themselves? Let them fight over that patch of hell all they want. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/124 "2012-03-15T21:09:24Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Leon panetta dropped in for a pep talk. All of the US soldiers in attendence were required to be disarmed. > Imagine what would happen if the Taliban showed up? What, in the conference room? > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, we plan to move the suspect (in the killings) out of the country. It’s already been done. Last I heard, he was moved to Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/125 "2012-03-15T23:19:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What, in the conference room? It wasn’t a conference room, but the Marines were ordered not to come in carrying their weapons because the Afghan troops there were asked not come in with their’s and the General who ordered the Marines to not come in carrying their weapons was that if they were there with their weapons it would be an insult to the Afghan troops. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/126 "2012-03-16T03:07:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What, in the conference room? > It’s already been done. Last I heard, he was moved to Kuwait. yah, about that. They went nuts in Kuwait when they found out. He’s in the United States now. turns out he was drunk and having marital and redeployment issues. That will go over big in Afghanistan. He could not have created a worse situation short of jamming a Quran in the victims’ back side. Even with the expediency of a military trial this is going to drag out forever. Look at the Ft Hood shooting. It’s been a year and a half and it hasn’t started yet. Maybe they can put this guy in the same cell as the Ft Hood shooter. They deserve each other. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/127 "2012-03-16T05:07:50Z")
His attorney said just a few hours ago he was still in Kuwait, and that he or an associate of his would be going to Kuwait to meet with him in about a week if he is not transferred to the United States. So it appears he may be getting transferred back to the United States but I don’t think he has arrived back stateside yet. The attorney who has been in contact with his wife has said the claims of marital problems are absolutely false. It appears legitimate the guy had a decorated career up to this point. With any crime this heinous I think just about the only thing you can do is make him look like as normal, sane, and upstanding citizen as possible prior to all this. Then try to show that after his TBI in Iraq and his close exposure to a fellow soldier being shot the day before the incident, build a case that he suffered a lapse in which he was no longer able to distinguish right from wrong. I think that statistically your chances of successfully arguing such a thing are around 0.6%, but it’s probably your only real chance. Throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks to make it seem credible he had lost the ability to distinguish right from wrong. I don’t know if this guy will get the death penalty but I’d be shocked beyond belief if he ever sees the light of day again. I think it’s possible he legitimately went “lost it” but there’s a difference between “lost it to the point he legitimately didn’t know right from wrong” and “lost it to the point where he no longer cared about right from wrong.” The latter means he deserves no leniency while the former would (to me personally.) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/128 "2012-03-16T10:50:08Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In other news, Karzai has requested our soldiers disengage from the countryside and hide away in our bases, effectively removing us from day-to-day security responsibilities. Some people take this as evidence of a deteriorating relationship and a “bad thing.” > > The way I see it, Afghanistan isn’t our responsibility. If they want us to back off, I’m all for it, I’m all for an accelerated withdrawal too. Our goal when we went into Afghanistan was supposed to be disrupting its ability to be a safe haven for Al-Qaeda. I’d say that goal was achieved as much as it ever was going to be a long, long time ago. Agreed. Also the Taliban have pulled out of peace talks. One sticking point was (shades of 'Nam) a refusal to grant the current (as they see it) ‘puppet’ regime a seat at the table. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/129 "2012-03-16T11:52:56Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > What should be done in cases of US soldiers killing Afghani civilians? Should the US turn soldiers like [this](http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html) over to the Afghan government for a trial and sentencing, or should the US military handle his punishment? I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, he committed a crime against Afghan citizens on Afghan soil under the jurisdiction of Afghan law. I can’t see how refusing to turn him over to Afghanistan could possibly be defensible. On the other hand, we don’t want a kangaroo circus court dragging an American soldier (even if he’s guilty) on an execution parade, serving as a focal point for the anti-American movement. > > What’s the best way to be sure that this soldier is sentenced appropriately and justice is served? What about in other cases of abuse by US soldiers? The soldiers actions were wrong,but one wonders about his state of mind. It was a senseless killing,and I believe our military should handle it. One has to think about the innocent people the Taliban, and Al Quida kill, and not just Americans but even their own people. Just as Hitler wasn’t afraid to kill German citizens. They can cut the noses and ears off of a young girl etc. and there is no uproar from the Afghanistan people. Their culture makes an exception if people of other countries would do as they do. And I feel that our Military should make sure a man is emotionally fit etc. to serve in such a situation knowing the culture itself is so different than ours. In war there are so many innocent people killed and maimed, and the way the Afghanistan culture is we will never get the people who were raised in almost a brain washed society to be a democratic society, and I doubt that Iraq will either. I hope I am wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/130 "2012-03-16T12:39:55Z")
It’s definitely a real possibility he should not have been deployed, the military has gotten better at it since the 70s but there is still a bit of a weakness in our ability to properly screen out mentally troubled soldiers in many circumstances. That wouldn’t exculpate the soldier for his actions, though. Having an emotional instability isn’t the same as a mental illness nor does it by itself say that you are not responsible for your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/131 "2012-03-16T14:53:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It wasn’t a conference room, but the Marines were ordered not to come in carrying their weapons because the Afghan troops there were asked not come in with their’s and the General who ordered the Marines to not come in carrying their weapons was that if they were there with their weapons it would be an insult to the Afghan troops. [Yes, I see here that around 200 Marines disarmed before going into the tent where Panetta was speaking.](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/leon-panetta-visits-afghanistan-hundreds-u-s-marines-unusually-asked-disarm-speaks-article-1.1038912) **ralph124c** seems to believe that the entire base was disarmed and totally defenseless while Panetta was speaking. For some reason I don’t think the military would do that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/132 "2012-03-16T16:50:08Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The way I see it, Afghanistan isn’t our responsibility. If they want us to back off, I’m all for it, I’m all for an accelerated withdrawal too. I’m not sure there’s much else we can do there either. That said, you can’t really say “they” want us out based on what Karzai says. After all, _we_ installed his government and it’s clear he speaks for a plurality of Afghanis at best. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/133 "2012-03-17T11:33:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure there’s much else we can do there either. That said, you can’t really say “they” want us out based on what Karzai says. After all, _we_ installed his government and it’s clear he speaks for a plurality of Afghanis at best. True. “They”, as in the Afghan people, never wanted you there in the first place. Now even the puppet regime wants you gone. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/134 "2012-03-17T11:47:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Meanwhile, we plan to move the suspect (in the killings) out of the country. …and into our country. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/135 "2012-03-17T23:17:59Z")
They found a war diary from a 2009 news article on a Army website that was supposedly written by this soldier. The ideals expressed there are commendable and exemplify what our troops try to live by. It makes my wonder what happened in the two years since then. Those extra combat tours really twisted this guys mind up. What he did to the Afghan civilians is in stark contrast to his Iraq service. Our military needs to seriously reconsider so many combat tours. Especially after they’ve had a serious head injury like this soldier did. It’s just asking too much. > [@](#): > > “I’ve never been more proud to be a part of this unit than that day,” Bales said now a member of 2-3 Inf. headquarters, “for the simple fact that we discriminated between the bad guys and the noncombatants and then afterward we ended up helping the people that three or four hours before were trying to kill us. I think that’s the real difference between being an American as opposed to being a bad guy, someone who puts his family in harm’s way like that.” [Ed. italics added]. [http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/16/afghanistan\_shooter\_quoted\_in\_2009\_army\_article\_from\_iraq](http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/16/afghanistan_shooter_quoted_in_2009_army_article_from_iraq) Full war diary from 2009 in google cache. Army has deleted it from their web site > **[Google Search](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vpS9p-wH0QsJ:www.army.mil%2Farticle%2F16623%2FLessons_learned_in_Iraq__the_Battle_of_Zarqa%2F%2B&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)** ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/136 "2012-03-18T19:29:27Z")
[Robert Fisk: Madness is not the reason for this massacre](http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-madness-is-not-the-reason-for-this-massacre-7575737.html). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/137 "2012-03-18T19:42:05Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [Robert Fisk: Madness is not the reason for this massacre](http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-madness-is-not-the-reason-for-this-massacre-7575737.html). I’d never heard of Robert Fisk but he so effectively conveyed his massive anti-military bias (which makes him essentially mainstream when it comes to British journalists these days) that I felt no reason to read his article past the halfway point. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/138 "2012-03-18T20:02:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d never heard of Robert Fisk but he so effectively conveyed his massive anti-military bias (which makes him essentially mainstream when it comes to British journalists these days) that I felt no reason to read his article past the halfway point. He inspired the term “Fisking” and he’s also something of a truther. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/139 "2012-03-18T21:22:14Z")
Amazing how that guy ignores the facts. It’s been reported widely that Sgt Bales’ best friend got his leg blown off the day before. We can’t begin to imagine the horrors Bale went through in 4 combat tours. Including his own head injury two years ago. His war time service will be the centerpiece of the PTSD defense. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s heading towards a very long prison sentence. I’m hoping his defense can save him from execution. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493/140 "2012-03-18T22:37:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d never heard of Robert Fisk but he so effectively conveyed his massive anti-military bias (which makes him essentially mainstream when it comes to British journalists these days) that I felt no reason to read his article past the halfway point. Fisk is well known as a pacifist. His views are hardly mainstream among British journalists. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Amazing how that guy ignores the facts. It’s been reported widely that Sgt Bales’ best friend got his leg blown off the day before. We can’t begin to imagine the horrors Bale went through in 4 combat tours. Including his own head injury two years ago. It’s amazing that you accuse him of ignoring facts that he mentions in the article you’re discussing. > [@](#): > > We learned yesterday that the soldier had recently seen one of his mates with his legs blown off. But so what? Say what you will about Fisk- I think his general viewpoint is dead wrong- but he’s also seen more war than just about any active duty soldier, so you kind of have to credit his views on the topic. His basic premise is that we don’t excuse Afghanis or Iraqis when they murder Americans, but we’re going out of our way to excuse this dude. Is he wrong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-soldiers-killing-afghani-civilians/615493.md?page=8)