# US support of Israel (from Hamas war discussion thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [December 18, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802 "2023-12-18T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/81 "2023-12-24T21:54:29Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Do you think it is really unique? What about, say, US operations in Baghdad? Are there any equivalents? More than anything else, I meant politically. Israel had not been occupying Gaza per se, but they have a land-sea-air blockade. Is it Israel-controlled land? Is it sovereign and distinct? Does Israel govern Gaza? It would be difficult to argue Gaza controls its own future, its availability of resources, etc. In my mind, whether they’d like it or not, Israel must view the citizens of Gaza as their wards, to some large extent. They deserve a certain level of protection, one the citizens of a “hostile nation” couldn’t typically expect, and much more than just complying with the conventions of traditional war. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/82 "2023-12-24T23:03:07Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > These days Israel exports a lot of weapons, though its balance with the U.S. is mostly imports. America has a much bigger arms industry than Israel (as do France, Russia, the UK, China, etc.) It’d be hard for Israel to have a net export balance with the US when the US is giving them a $3.3 billion a year gift card to shop in the US defense industry. You are certainly correct that the countries you list have larger arms industries than Israel, but not by as much as one might expect. The [defense budgets of the UK and France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures) are only about two and three times as large as Israel’s respectively, and both of them have two _very, very_ high price tag items on their defense budgets that Israel doesn’t: a strategic nuclear arsenal powerful enough and with range enough to effectively destroy any country on the planet, and the ability to globally project their military power. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/83 "2024-01-03T21:13:03Z")
Bringing this one back a bit, Bernie Sanders is done spending on this war. # ‘Enough Is Enough’: Sanders Says Congress Should Reject Aid For Israel’s War In Gaza [https://www.yahoo.com/news/enough-enough-sanders-says-congress-135010101.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/enough-enough-sanders-says-congress-135010101.html) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/84 "2024-01-03T23:28:32Z")
" Enough is enough,” [Sanders said in a statement](https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-senator-bernie-sanders-calls-for-no-more-u-s-funding-for-netanyahus-illegal-and-immoral-war-against-the-palestinian-people/). “Congress must reject that funding. The taxpayers of the United States must no longer be complicit in destroying the lives of innocent men, women, and children in Gaza.” (From article…) “The war has so far killed over 22,300 people in Gaza, according to local officials, and displaced 85% of the territory’s population.” Bernie usually has a point. An idealistic point that on its face is hard to argue with. What happend in Israel is disgusting. So is what’s happening to the innocent people, the children in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/85 "2024-01-04T02:53:55Z")
One of the released hostages, who feared that she would be raped and was held in a household of a “normal family”, said there were no innocent people in the Gaza strip. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/86 "2024-01-04T02:55:05Z")
How about a state without an army? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/87 "2024-01-04T02:57:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of the released hostages, who feared that she would be raped and was held in a household of a “normal family”, said there were no innocent people in the Gaza strip. …do **you** think there are no innocent people in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/88 "2024-01-04T21:28:10Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Not to put too fine a point on it, but Israel is also murdering babies in their cribs. Not with knives and guns, but with dropping bombs on civilians in order to get to Hamas. > > Yes, these babies are collateral damage of Israel’s attempt to destroy Hamas, and not individually killed like Hamas did, but at the end of the day both are killing babies in their cribs. > > Note: I’m not saying both sides are the same. Israel has a right to defend itself, but don’t use “killing babies in their cribs” as a sensational reason why Palestinians should not have statehood When you tie someone to the tracks in front of a speeding locomotive, _you_ are the murderer, not the engineer. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/89 "2024-01-04T23:06:28Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > When you tie someone to the tracks in front of a speeding locomotive, _you_ are the murderer, not the engineer. …Israel are bombing apartment blocks, Mosques, churches, hospitals, refugee camps. They are the _bombers that are killing innocent civilians_. There is no need for an analogy here. There is more than enough [evidence](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) to indict. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/90 "2024-01-05T00:14:28Z")
I don’t recall anyone objecting to German children being killed in WWII. Perhaps you would feel differently if your people were among the 1,200 raped and murdered. They only other thing Israel can do is go home and wait for more rapes and murders. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/91 "2024-01-05T00:25:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t recall anyone objecting to German children being killed in WWII. …its kinda the reason why the Geneva conventions and the laws of war came about. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps you would feel differently if your people were among the 1,200 raped and murdered. I’ve condemned Hamas multiple times in multiple threads, called what they did on October 7th an unmistakable act of evil, I’ve argued that Israel had every right to respond. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They only other thing Israel can do is go home and wait for more rapes and murders. What I want them to do is actually target Hamas. The 90 day siege, the indiscriminate bombing campaign, shutting down hospitals, driving 1.9 million people out-of-their-homes, these are not tactics that have targeted Hamas. They have targeted the civilian population of Gaza, it has targeted the civilian infrastructure, it has targeted cultural institutions. They are actions which are, as described in detail in the submission to the international court, are _genocidal in character_. And the US’s support of Israel’s campaign against Gaza makes them _complicit_. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/92 "2024-01-05T02:20:25Z")
> **[False dilemma](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma)** > > A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, presenting the viewer with o... ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/93 "2024-01-05T03:39:25Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Now. let me clarify my analogy by adding some more details: What if instead of a lone baby beside him, he was hiding out in a movie theater containing 10-20 times the number people said klansman killed, and it was known that the detonation would destroy a city block of surrounding housing. Would that be a justifiable action? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/94 "2024-01-05T14:50:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Israel are bombing apartment blocks, Mosques, churches, hospitals, refugee camps. They are the _bombers that are killing innocent civilians_. There is no need for an analogy here. There is more than enough [evidence](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) to indict. The IDF gave Palestinians _weeks_ to get civilians out of the way. How many other nations would warn their enemies of incoming attacks? But Hamas forced them to stay. They fired on their own people trying to escape with their lives to prevent them reaching safety. And they have bomb proof bunkers under all of those hospitals, churches, etc. A war crime, by the way. Civilians are _not_ allowed to shelter there. They are literally _forced_ to become human shields or else. All because Hamas thinks human lives are worthless and that maximizing civilian casualties will be good PR for them. Israel didn’t do any of that. They’re targeting legitimate military targets and doing everything they can to avoid civilian casualties. _Hamas_ is to blame for every civilian injury and death in Gaza. Both because the started the war to begin with, and because they encourage and force their civilians to die, for nothing more than a news highlight reel. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/95 "2024-01-05T17:14:19Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > What if instead of a lone baby beside him, he was hiding out in a movie theater containing 10-20 times the number people said klansman killed, and it was known that the detonation would destroy a city block of surrounding housing. Would that be a justifiable action? Hamas is not “hiding out” in a movie theater. They are proudly and publicly using the “movie theater”–and the entire city block-- as a military base,WITH THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE PEOPLE LIVING THERE. The residents know full well that there is a missile launcher in the back yard of the building, where their children play. Please click on the link, and take a good look at the photo of the children… This is not new–it’s been going on for 2 decades, and everybody knows it. This link is from 10 years ago. > **[Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad lies near Gaza homes](https://www.france24.com/en/20140805-exclusive-video-hamas-rocket-launching-pad-near-gaza-homes-un-building)** > > FRANCE 24 has exclusive footage of a Hamas rocket-launching pad that appears to show that the Islamist militant group has been firing from areas heavily populated with civilians. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/96 "2024-01-05T17:30:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What I want them to do is actually target Hamas. They have degraded a few Hamas units. However, Hamas is definitely not “destroyed”, not yet, anyway. The [Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-january-2-2024) put it: > **Israeli forces are transitioning to the third phase of their operations in the northern Gaza Strip, which will very likely enable Hamas to reconstitute itself militarily.** The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed that it withdrew five brigades from the northern Gaza Strip on December 31.[1] This reduction in forces is part of what the IDF has described as its third phase in the strip, which also involves ending major combat operations, releasing reservists, transitioning to “targeted raids,” and establishing a security buffer zone within the Gaza Strip.[2] Israeli forces have degraded several Hamas units and rendered others combat ineffective, particularly in the northern Gaza strip, since the beginning of the clearing operations.[3] But Hamas’ military forces are neither defeated nor destroyed at this time. Decreased Israeli pressure would, in fact, allow Hamas to rebuild its military capabilities and infrastructure. Hamas maintains a conventional military structure, meaning that it should be able to quickly replace commanders who have died in the war.[4] Several recently killed Hamas battalion and brigade commanders had led their units for many years, suggesting that they had the ability and time to develop successors to take their place.[5] Such reconstitution is inconsistent with the stated Israeli war aims, which are to destroy Hamas militarily and politically.[6] also > [23] Palestinian militias continued to operate in the northern Gaza Strip and have targeted Israeli forces in areas where Israel has degraded the local Hamas units.[24] Israel likely faces continued attacks in these areas in part because it is fighting several Palestinian militias, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and the al Aqsa Martyrs‘ Brigades, rather than just Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2024, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/97 "2024-01-05T23:14:53Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The IDF gave Palestinians _weeks_ to get civilians out of the way. …wow. _Really_? This is what you are going for? Well, okay then, lets start here. From the latest Gaza Flash Report: > [@Flash Report](#): > > By the end of 2023, according to UNRWA, 1.9 million people, or nearly 85 per cent of the total population of Gaza, were estimated to be internally displaced, including many who have been displaced multiple times, as families are forced to move repeatedly in search of safety. Nearly 1.4 million IDPs are sheltering in 155 UNRWA facilities across all five governorates. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #84 \[EN/AR/HE\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-84-enarhe)** > > Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Education and more; published on 4 Jan 2024 by OCHA Just to make this as clear as possible: 1.9 million out of 2.3 million civilians have _tried to get out of the way_. 1.9 million people have been _displaced_. 1.9 million people are no longer in their homes. Many of those people have had their homes destroyed. Many have nothing to go back too. Many have only what they can carry on their backs. But it gets worse. > [@Flash Update](#): > > Rafah governorate is now the main refuge for those displaced, with over one million people squeezed into an extremely overcrowded space, following the intensification of hostilities in Khan Younis and Deir al Balah and the Israeli military’s evacuation orders. Obtaining an accurate figure of the total number of IDPs remains challenging. Rafah, the southernmost point of Gaza, right up against the border with Egypt, now houses _over one million_ of the 1.9 million people that have been displaced. And here’s the kicker: the IDF regularly bomb places that they tell people to evacuate to. > [@Sky News](#): > > In preparation for an invasion of southern Gaza, Israel published an interactive map which divided the territory into hundreds of small zones. > > The map, Israel said, would be used to give clear and precise evacuation orders to try to keep civilians in the densely populated Gaza Strip away from active combat zones. > > Using on-the-ground footage, satellite imagery and mapping software, a Sky News visual investigation found that Israel’s evacuation orders have instead been chaotic and contradictory and that a neighbourhood in Deir al Balah was hit one day after the IDF said evacuees could flee there. > > … > > n response to our investigation, the United Nations told Sky News that it is **already investigating 52 similar incidents** in areas where the Israeli army told civilians it was safe to evacuate to. > > “This is exactly why we as the UN have been saying that there is no safe place in Gaza,” Ajith Sunghay, head of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, told Sky News. > **[Israel said Gazans could flee to this neighbourhood - then it was hit](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-said-gazans-could-flee-to-this-neighbourhood-then-it-was-hit-13034936)** > > A Sky News visual investigation shows a building in Deir al Balah was hit one day after civilians were told they could flee to the city. Israel says it struck military targets in the area that day. The UN told Sky News that such strikes had "no... > [@DrCube](#): > > How many other nations would warn their enemies of incoming attacks? Irrelevant. These “warnings” don’t always happen, are inconsistent, vague, often put people in harms way, sometimes rely on checking the IDF website to see if the grid your house is in has changed colour in a place where the internet is more often than not, is not working. > [@DrCube](#): > > But Hamas forced them to stay. They fired on their own people trying to escape with their lives to prevent them reaching safety. There were a scattering of limited, unconfirmed, anecdotal reports of this happening in the very early days of the war. But 1.9 million people have managed to not get shot by Hamas as they abandoned their homes. 1 million people managed to not get shot by Hamas as they made their way down to Rafah. > [@DrCube](#): > > And they have bomb proof bunkers under all of those hospitals, churches, etc. A war crime, by the way. I’ve been tracking the status of the hospitals very closely in the original discussion thread. I’ve provided multiple citations to back up everything I’m about to say, and you can find them in the original thread. However, if there is anything specific that you doubt, I’ll happily dig up the relevant citation and post it here on request. But only one party have committed war-crimes in regards to hospitals in Gaza, and that party is Israel. Hospitals have protected status in war. They are not allowed to be targeted unless: > [@International Red Cross](#): > > unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an “act harmful to the enemy”. An important caveat here is: > [@International Red Cross](#): > > In case of doubt as to whether medical units of establishments are used to commit an “act harmful to the enemy”, they should be presumed not to be so used. > **[The protection of hospitals during armed conflicts: What the law says](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says)** > > What kind of specific protection do the wounded and sick enjoy in times of armed conflict?In times of armed conflict, the wounded and sick include anyone, whether military or civilian, who needs medical attention and is not, or no longer, taking part... The bar that allows you to target a hospital in international law is set _extremely_ high. Every international legal in this area that has spoken out about this have said that in the case of Gaza and all of the hospitals that have been targeted so far, that bar has not been met. But even if it was, there are even more caveats: > [@International Red Cross](#): > > Even then, humanitarian considerations relating to the welfare of the wounded and sick being cared for in the facility may not be disregarded. They must be spared and, as far as possible, active measures for their safety taken. > > … > > An attacking party remains also bound by the obligation to take precautions in attack, in particular to do everything feasible to avoid or at least minimize harm to patients and medical personnel who may have nothing to do with those acts and for whom the humanitarian consequences will be especially dire. > > … > > Prepare a contingency plan to address the estimated disruption to health-care services and to re-establish full delivery as soon as possible. > • Consider measures both for the evacuation of patients and medical personnel and for them to be taken properly in charge. > • Interrupt the attack if the facility no longer meets the criteria leading to the loss of protected status (e.g. combatants have fled from the medical facility). > • After the attack, facilitate or implement measures for the rapid restoration of health-care services (e.g. provide military medical support for the civilian medical facility). The TLDR version: - hospitals need to be demonstrably used outside their humanitarian functions in acts harmful to the enemy in order to lose their protected status - attacks on this hospital will be interrupted if the hospital is no longer acting in ways harmful to the enemy - After the attack, the attacker must work to restore healthcare services Heres the current status of hospitals in Gaza: > [@Flash Report](#): > > According to WHO, as of 3 January, 13 out of Gaza’s 36 hospitals are partially functional; nine in the south and four in the north. > > … > > Those in the north have been offering maternity, trauma, and emergency care services. However, they face challenges such as a shortage of medical staff, including specialized surgeons, neurosurgeons, and intensive care staff, as well as a lack of medical supplies such as anesthesia, antibiotics, pain relief medicines, and external fixators. Additionally, they have an urgent need for fuel, food, and drinking water. > > … > > The nine partially functional hospitals in the south are operating at three times their capacity, while facing critical shortages of basic supplies and fuel. Only 13 out of 36 hospitals are still functional, and the 4 hospitals in the north that are still functional can only provide very limited, emergency and hospice care. What happened to the other 23? Some in the north were completely destroyed, along with everything else in their neighbourhood. Others, most notably Al Shifa, were all taken down in what has become a very familiar pattern. They were surrounded by the IDF, then placed under siege. No food, water, fuel or medical supplies were allowed to get in. Multiple reports of people getting shot whilst trying to get in and out. After days, sometimes weeks of siege, the hospitals were raided by the IDF. Then medical staff, patients, and people taking shelter in the hospitals were either detained or forcibly expelled. Some of those detained have just _disappeared_, family have been unable to find out what happened to them after they were taken into custody. Then the IDF _destroyed_ crucial hospital infrastructure that made bringing the hospital back into service next-to-impossible. Then they _abandoned_ the hospitals. _These_ are the war crimes that happened at the hospitals. The alleged existence of bomb-proof bunkers under some of the hospitals _isn’t enough to make them a target_. But even if these bunkers were enough of a justification, the sieges, expelling the hospital staff and patients, then _destroying_ the ability of the hospitals to resume effectively caring for patients are undeniably against the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. These were _war crimes_. As for churches and Mosques, Israel has so far destroyed 318 Muslim and Christian religious sites, yet produced practically zero evidence that _any_ of them had bomb-proof bunkers under them. > [@DrCube](#): > > They are literally _forced_ to become human shields or else. _Nonsense_. Show me some examples of this in _this_ war. With the emphasis on the word _forced_. > [@DrCube](#): > > All because Hamas thinks human lives are worthless and that maximizing civilian casualties will be good PR for them. At last count, 70 Palestinian journalists have been killed during this campaign. And they have died trying to bring the story of what is happening to them to the international community. This isn’t “PR.” It isn’t “public relations for Hamas”. Its the reality of what they are facing. Over 90 days of siege that has bought Gaza to the bring of famine. Well over 20,000 dead, most of them women and children. Thousands of orphans. Thousands of child amputees. Thousands still trapped under the rubble. > [@DrCube](#): > > Israel didn’t do any of that. They’re targeting legitimate military targets and doing everything they can to avoid civilian casualties. Prove it. Isreal is using an AI-driven system called the Gospel to help select targets in Gaza. From its first “activation” back in 2021, they went from on average 50 targets a year to _100 targets a day_. > **[‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets)** > > Concerns over data-driven ‘factory’ that significantly increases the number of targets for strikes in the Palestinian territory > [@The Guardian](#): > > The target division was created to address a chronic problem for the IDF: in earlier operations in Gaza, the air force repeatedly ran out of targets to strike. Since senior Hamas officials disappeared into tunnels at the start of any new offensive, sources said, systems such as the Gospel allowed the IDF to locate and attack a much larger pool of more junior operatives. > > One official, who worked on targeting decisions in previous Gaza operations, said the IDF had not previously targeted the homes of junior Hamas members for bombings. They said they believed that had changed for the present conflict, with the houses of suspected Hamas operatives now targeted regardless of rank. > > “That is a lot of houses,” the official told +972/Local Call. “Hamas members who don’t really mean anything live in homes across Gaza. So they mark the home and bomb the house and kill everyone there.” > > … > > A lawyer who advises governments on AI and compliance with humanitarian law said there was “little empirical evidence” to support such claims. Others pointed to the visible impact of the bombardment. > > “Look at the physical landscape of Gaza,” said Richard Moyes, a researcher who heads Article 36, a group that campaigns to reduce harm from weapons. > > “We’re seeing the widespread flattening of an urban area with heavy explosive weapons, so to claim there’s precision and narrowness of force being exerted is not borne out by the facts.” > > … > > The source said there had been occasions when “there was doubt about a target” and “we killed what I thought was a disproportionate amount of civilians”. > > … > > Moyes, of Article 36, said that when relying on tools such as the Gospel, a commander “is handed a list of targets a computer has generated” and they “don’t necessarily know how the list has been created or have the ability to adequately interrogate and question the targeting recommendations”. > > “There is a danger,” he added, “that as humans come to rely on these systems they become cogs in a mechanised process and lose the ability to consider the risk of civilian harm in a meaningful way.” From the South African submission to the International Court: > [@submission](#): > > “Nowhere is safe in Gaza”, as the United Nations Secretary-General — and many other United Nations experts — have now made clear to the international community.188 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed in their homes, in places where they sought shelter, in hospitals, in UNWRA schools, in churches, in mosques, and as they tried to find food and water for their families. They have been killed > if they failed to evacuate, in the places to which they fled, and even while they attempted to flee along Israeli declared “safe routes”.189 > > … > > Israel is said to be dropping ‘dumb’ (i.e., unguided) bombs on Gaza,195 as well as heavy bombs weighing up to 2,000 lbs (900 kgs),196 which have a predicted lethal radius “of up to 360m”, and are “expected to cause severe injury and damage as far as 800 metres from the point of impact”.197 This weaponry is being deployed in one of the most densely populated areas in the world, where approximately one in every 100 people has now been killed. Some Israeli strikes on Palestinian homes and refugee camps have killed upwards of 110 Palestinians.198 An estimated 1,779 Palestinian families in Gaza have lost multiple family members, and hundreds of multigenerational families have been killed in their entirety, with no remaining survivors — mothers, fathers, children, siblings, grandparents, aunts, > cousins — often all killed together.1 > > … > > For Palestinian children, in particular, “[d]eath is everywhere” and “nowhere is safe”.203 A total of over 7,729 Palestinian children have been killed in Gaza to date — over 115 Palestinian children in Gaza are killed every day.204 It is estimated that more Palestinian children were killed in the first three weeks in Gaza alone (a total of 3,195) than the total number of children killed each year across the world’s conflict zones since 2019.205 The scale of Palestinian child killings in Gaza is such that United Nations chiefs have described it as “a graveyard for children”.206 Indeed, the unprecedented rate of Palestinian child casualties has prompted UNICEF’s spokesperson to call Israel’s attacks on Gaza a “war on children” > > … > Over 55,243 Palestinians have been wounded in Israel’s military attacks on Gaza since 7 October 2023, the majority of them women and children.215 Burns and amputations are typical injuries,216 with an estimated 1,000 children having lost one or both legs.2 The amount of evidence that Isreal is _not_ just targeting “legimate military targets” and are _not_ doing everything they can to avoid civilian casualties is _overwhelming_. > [@DrCube](#): > > _Hamas_ is to blame for every civilian injury and death in Gaza. That isn’t how things work. The Isreali government have decided how they will conduct this war. The IDF are choosing what targets. You don’t get to deflect responsiblity here. Isreal are responsible for the bombs they have dropped, for the strategy they have adopted, for the tactics they are using. Isreal are to blame for the civlian casualties they have caused. They could have chosen to conduct this war differently. But this is the path they are on. > [@DrCube](#): > > Both because the started the war to begin with, and because they encourage and force their civilians to die, for nothing more than a news highlight reel. This didn’t start on October the 7th. And we can see from the escalation of hostilites in the West Bank that this really isn’t just about Hamas. > [@chappachula](#): > > Hamas is not “hiding out” in a movie theater. They are proudly and publicly using the “movie theater”–and the entire city block-- as a military base,WITH THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE PEOPLE LIVING THERE. Its odd that you argue this, but the only evidence to support it… > [@chappachula](#): > > This link is from 10 years ago. Is from ten years ago. If you have anything more recent, please feel free to share it with the rest of us in this thread. In particular, the whole “military base” thing. And even if every single civilian that lived in the proximity of these alleged “military bases” gave those bases their “full support”, this _still_ wouldn’t make them legitimate targets. You don’t become a legitimate target in war because you fly a US flag outside your house. You don’t become a legitimate target because you live next door to Edwards Air Force Base. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/98 "2024-01-06T00:18:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This didn’t start on October the 7th. I think it did. I think that — if this war has proven nothing else — Israel has now demonstrated that, if Hamas launches an attack to rape and murder hundreds of Israeli civilians, Israel is decidedly willing to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians in an effort to strike at Hamas. And I think that was already known to Hamas before October the 7th. I think that — on October the 6th — the following had been made clear to Hamas: _hey, Hamas, see how things are now, with us pointedly not killing tens of thousands of Palestinians? If you launch some kind of rape-murder attack, we’ll unhesitatingly kill tens of thousands of Palestinians to get at you. So, what’s it going to be? Keep things the way they are now, or launch an attack that we’ll respond to in the manner I just mentioned? It’s a life-and-death question for tens of thousands of Palestinians: which way are you going to go on October the 7th?_ And the reply from Hamas was, apparently, _we understand completely — and we thank you for the information! — and we’ve decided to opt for the rapes and the murders, like you were saying._ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/99 "2024-01-06T00:22:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think it did. …it didn’t. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think that — if this war has made nothing else clear — Israel has now demonstrated that, if Hamas launches an attack to rape and murder hundreds of Israeli civilians, Israel is decidedly willing to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians in an effort to strike at Hamas. I’m glad you are open about it. Because this is the basis of _the case for genocide_ that South Africa will be presenting to the International Court. The deliberate targeting of tens of thousands of Palestinians that aren’t Hamas. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > we’ll unhesitatingly kill tens of thousands of Palestinians to get at you. You are describing a _war crime_. Undeniably. Unquestionably. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/100 "2024-01-06T00:23:29Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think that — if this war has proven nothing else — Israel has now demonstrated that, if Hamas launches an attack to rape and murder hundreds of Israeli civilians, Israel is decidedly willing to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians in an effort to strike at Hamas. And I think this is a fundamental difference in the sides on this debate: those who think this is a good thing, and those who don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802.md?page=6)