# US support of Israel (from Hamas war discussion thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [December 18, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802 "2023-12-18T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/101 "2024-01-06T00:37:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m glad you are open about it. It seems pointless to do otherwise; as far as I can tell, it’s quite plainly what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/102 "2024-01-06T00:41:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It seems pointless to deny it; as far as I can tell, it’s plainly what’s happening. …then you shouldn’t be talking to me. You should be telling this to the people in this thread claiming Israel are only “targeting legitimate military targets and doing everything they can to avoid civilian casualties.” Because we both know that _they are not_. And we both know that _this is a war crime_. And that, bringing it back to the topic of this thread, the US is supporting, funding and providing the weapons to _enable_ this war crime. They are _complicit_. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/103 "2024-01-06T01:09:46Z")
I think Israel creates safe areas, but if hamas moves there to be safe, they bomb it. If a Palestinian is in a safe area and sees hamas, it is no longer safe and they should move the hell somewhere else, somewhere hamas is not hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/104 "2024-01-06T01:28:51Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I think Israel creates safe areas, … Israel aren’t “creating” anything. There _are_ no safe areas. There is nowhere in Gaza that the IDF will not target. They’ve been crystal clear about this. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > but if hamas moves there to be safe, they bomb it. What does “Hamas have moved there to be safe” actually mean in practice? As in, can you demonstrate any practical examples from the over 90 days of conflict of how this has happened? Can you walk us through the process? How does the IDF identify where Hamas is at any single moment? How do they know they have moved? How many Hamas soldiers have been killed so far in this war? And I’m not talking about “ratios” or “guesses.” When the IDF bombs refugee camps, like when they hit Maghazi not so long ago, what were the number of Hamas deaths there? Can you be specific? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If a Palestinian is in a safe area and sees hamas, it is no longer safe and they should move the hell somewhere else, somewhere hamas is not hiding. Can a Palestinian see Hamas if they are sleeping in their bed? Can they see Hamas if they are lying in their tent, or walking down the street, or lying in a hospital? How even is this practical advice? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/105 "2024-01-06T02:15:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What does “Hamas have moved there to be safe” actually mean in practice? That hamas hides among innocent people, in the belief that Israel will not kill them, and enjoying the bad press Israel gets for doing so to end hamas. hamas is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/106 "2024-01-06T03:18:43Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That hamas hides among innocent people, in the belief that Israel will not kill them, and enjoying the bad press Israel gets for doing so to end hamas. hamas is evil. …my question stands. If they are hiding, how do the innocent people know who they are? How do they leave the area? How do they know where to go? And if they are hiding, then how do they know if where they’ve gone is actually safe? Tell me the practical steps here. Firstly, what does Hamas hiding among innocent people look like? Secondly, what process does the IDF undertake to clearly distinguish between civilians and Hamas? They are hiding, after all. So if they are only targeting Hamas, how do they know where they are? Can you walk us through some real-world examples? They’ve been bombing Gaza for 90 days. On average 300 people are being killed every day. On average, 100 children are being killed every day. It shouldn’t be _that_ hard to find examples of Hamas hiding when so many people are dying so _often_. Can you give us some examples? If you can, be as specific as possible. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/107 "2024-01-06T03:56:47Z")
That is a nice idea in theory, but as the box in Gaza gets smaller and smaller, it reaches a point where there is nowhere else to go. The Palestinians can’t cross the border into either Egypt or Israel, so unless the IDF is going to screen civilians and allow them to reenter the northern part of the strip, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy that Hamas will be mixed in with civilians. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/108 "2024-01-06T14:46:20Z")
They will be the guys with AK-47s. Just walk away from them. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/109 "2024-01-06T17:09:29Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Bernie usually has a point. An idealistic point that on its face is hard to argue with. > What happend in Israel is disgusting. > So is what’s happening to the innocent people, the children in Gaza. Which makes a good argument for less direct involvement by the US. By direct I mean providing support to one side or another- as opposed to things like mediation. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/110 "2024-01-06T18:51:17Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > That is a nice idea in theory, but as the box in Gaza gets smaller and smaller, it reaches a point where there is nowhere else to go. The Palestinians can’t cross the border into either Egypt or Israel, so unless the IDF is going to screen civilians and allow them to reenter the northern part of the strip, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy that Hamas will be mixed in with civilians. It would be even nicer if it even rose to the level of a theory. It does not. Let’s look again at the original statement: > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I think Israel creates safe areas, but if hamas moves there to be safe, they bomb it. I think all governmental actions around the world are powered by pixie dust and rainbows. Sadly, my thinking that isn’t evidence of it in fact being true. From the beginning of the conflict, with Israel telling half the Palestinians living in Gaza they had 24 hours to move to the other half of the country, Israel has done nothing to either consider if areas they’ve designated as ‘safe’ can support a refugee population, _or even actually refrained from attacking such areas_. > **[IDF instructions on Gaza refuge zones cruel ‘mirage’, say aid agencies](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/07/idf-israel-gaza-refuge-zones-cruel-mirage-say-aid-agencies)** > > Those who have fled to ‘humanitarian zone’ in south-west Gaza bemoan total lack of shelter and barely any food ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/111 "2024-01-06T21:00:14Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They will be the guys with AK-47s. …hold on a second: weren’t Hamas _hiding_? If they are the guys who are clearly identifiable because they are always holding AK-47’s, then by definition they are _not_ hiding. Which make the thousands of dead children even more unfathomable. Why are the IDF killing so many people? Why don’t they just target the people carrying the AK-47’s? And my other questions to you remain. If a family are asleep in their house, how do they even know that a guy with an AK-47 is nearby? There are very serious practical issues with the advice that you are providing to the civilian population of Gaza. Is this really the best you’ve got? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/112 "2024-01-07T01:10:46Z")
They are hiding from the IDF, not the folks in Gaza whom they wish to impress and intimidate. Chicks dig AK47s. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/113 "2024-01-07T01:45:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They are hiding from the IDF …so how do the IDF know where they are? If it isn’t the AK-47’s, then what is it exactly? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Chicks dig AK47s. This is unbelievably _crass_. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/114 "2024-01-07T02:23:11Z")
Humor. It is a difficult concept. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/115 "2024-01-07T02:43:33Z")
…genocide isn’t particularly funny. Over 6000 woman have been killed by the IDF bombardment. Many thousands more will die in the coming weeks as famine closes in, a result of over 90 days of siege by Israeli forces. Women are giving birth in tents, surrounded by mud. No doctors, no nurses, no medication. No chance at life. Women and young girls don’t even have access to menstrual products in Gaza. Things as _basic_ as that. There is nothing funny about this at all. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/116 "2024-01-07T16:32:58Z")
Since it was my derailment of a different thread that got this thread started, I would like to request that we get back to discussing the US support of Israel in the Gaza War here. There is another thread for talking about what is going on in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/117 "2024-01-09T18:39:13Z")
**Warning** issued for being offensive when you clearly know better. Declaring is for educational purposes also smacks of junior modding. Then there is the gratuitous use of the N-word a second time for not even a stretch of a good reason. @chappachula, You are also no longer permitted to post in this thread. **moderating complete.** ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/118 "2024-01-09T18:42:19Z")
**Moderating** : Seriously, not funny and offensive. Avoid misogynistic jokes like this please. It adds nothing but offense. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/119 "2024-01-19T12:46:08Z")
This probably isn’t enough to open a rift between the US and Israel, but I really hope that Biden uses some pressure here to force a change. Several posters here go on about Netanyahu being a dead man walking, but he is still in charge, and he has miraculously survived in power for decades. Much like Trump, I won’t believe he is finished until he is in the grave. Make Israel chose between a new policy and/or new leadership or no more US aid. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday rejected calls from the United States to scale back Israel’s military offensive in the Gaza Strip or take steps toward the establishment of a Palestinian state after the war, drawing an immediate scolding from the White House. “In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan,” Netanyahu told a nationally broadcast news conference. “This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?” [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d) ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802/120 "2024-01-19T13:01:21Z")
I posted about this in the other thread. If a two state solution isn’t OK And if we assume a one state solution won’t work What the hell is left? I have close ties to Israel and I really worry they will go down a bad path here. One that will leave Israel in much worse stead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-support-of-israel-from-hamas-war-discussion-thread/994802.md?page=7)