# US. The freest country in the world. Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763 "2010-11-15T19:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/61 "2010-11-16T18:33:15Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > This may be key to the discussion. We can talk about freedom being measured by gun ownership, or the ability to drink beer in the street or to pump your own gas in New Jersey, but it all comes down to elected representatives doing what the majority of the people who elected them want them to do. Generally speaking, of course; some people will never like what legislatures and parliaments and congresses do. Okay, but with one caveat: a truly free country also protects its citizens from the tyranny of the majority. That’s the value of things like a Constitution that recognizes inalienable rights and a representative republic. The majority doesn’t get to trample the minority simply by being the majority. I am, of course, aware that it hasn’t worked perfectly in that respect in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/62 "2010-11-16T18:39:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > \ I fail to understand why quietly having a beer in a park is unacceptable, but having a beer on a sidewalk patio owned by a restaurant is okay. \ And this brings us to my point; it’s all well and good to talk about democratically-elected officials making the laws that the majority want and consider just, but in the real world, a lot of these laws are created for special-interest groups (and when I say “special-interest groups,” for all intents and purposes you can substitute “people with money and power”). ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/63 "2010-11-16T18:45:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Okay, but with one caveat: a truly free country also protects its citizens from the tyranny of the majority. That’s the value of things like a Constitution that recognizes inalienable rights and a representative republic. The majority doesn’t get to trample the minority simply by being the majority. I am, of course, aware that it hasn’t worked perfectly in that respect in the real world. I might say “a representative government,” since not all free western democracies are republics, but they still have constitutions that guarantee rights. At any rate, I think you’ve got a good point. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/64 "2010-11-16T18:49:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Okay, but with one caveat: a truly free country also protects its citizens from the tyranny of the majority. That’s the value of things like a Constitution that recognizes inalienable rights and a representative republic. The majority doesn’t get to trample the minority simply by being the majority. I am, of course, aware that it hasn’t worked perfectly in that respect in the real world. Look at how well the US Constitution has worked out for minorities throughout its history. Simply put, a constitution is only as good as the judiciary that interprets it at any given time. Most western countries have some sort of constitution, and I’ll say Canada has done slightly better for the rights of minorities than the US, even before we had our own constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/65 "2010-11-16T18:52:37Z")
I did acknowledge that it has worked imperfectly. Hurrah for Canada! Hurrah, I say! Hurrah! Now that a citizen of the US has gone ahead and said that, do you feel a greater level of self-actualization? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/66 "2010-11-16T19:25:56Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I did acknowledge that it has worked imperfectly. > > Hurrah for Canada! Hurrah, I say! Hurrah! Now that a citizen of the US has gone ahead and said that, do you feel a greater level of self-actualization? Not at all. I don’t think it is possible :D. My point is that representing a constitution as the ultimate bulwark for defending the rights of a people or a minority is vastly over rated. The US Constitution is a beautiful document that Americans can be well proud of. The efficacy and nature of such a document is still reliant on a super majority as well as the whims of a panel of appointed citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/67 "2010-11-16T21:26:07Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Look at how well the US Constitution has worked out for minorities throughout its history. Well quite. The UK lacks any written constitution yet we have better rights for minorities (and, more to the point, recognition that minorities should actually have rights in general) than the US does. As a gay I’d pick living in a large segment of Europe over the US every time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/68 "2010-11-16T21:30:22Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Well quite. The UK lacks any written constitution yet we have better rights for minorities (and, more to the point, recognition that minorities should actually have rights in general) than the US does. > > As a gay I’d pick living in a large segment of Europe over the US every time. Sure you do.:rolleyes: [Same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage_in_Britain) ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/69 "2010-11-16T21:35:26Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You’ve got me there. But let’s be clear. That law is only in Quebec and as a nation we do have to allow the freedom for francphone Quebecois to ensure their language remains preeminent within their borders. Those guys are a very special case, somewhat like the special cases for aboriginals in both Canada and the US within their reservations. Indeed, a special case. There are special cases in every country, if you look close enough. It’s just a matter of whether you think that particular case is important or not. That’s why a ranking of countries is impossible. I happen to take the situation in Quebec personally because it changed my life dramatically while I was a teenager. I loved living in Montreal, but as an anglophone who spoke no French my dad decided he had no future there, no long-term career prospects. So we moved to Los Angeles. Huge, huge life change. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/70 "2010-11-17T01:28:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > HK has enormous economic freedom, which can end at the snap of a finger. On the surface, it appears to have poltical freedom, but that is mostly a illusion. You have a Chinese passprt, you have Chinese restrcitions, and everyone knows the Communist government is watching the sitrep carefully, ready to squelch if need be. IN the interest of fighting ignorance, honkies carry a HKSAR passport, which is not a Chinese passport. Details here: [Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passport - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Special_Administrative_Region_passport) Also, honkies can thank that wonderful British colonial system for not granting HK citizens UK passports in the run up to 1997. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/71 "2010-11-17T02:10:59Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > In other words, Hong Kong would not be my obvious first choice…if you’d think Singapore’s ranking would change dramatically if one included political freedom I’d think Hong Kong would be in the same boat. Sort of, depends on your definition of political freedom. In both cases, the system is set up such that the authority always has the final say in matters. However, this is achieved in very different ways in the two places. In Singapore, my understanding is that the ruling People’s Action Party is very eager to bring anyone who challenges it to court with ‘libel’, and the PAP almost always win. I think it’s fair to say that people there don’t really have complete freedom of speech without fear of persecution. In Hong Kong, the system is rigged through a mechanism called the ‘functional constituency’ to give an unfair advantage to the pro-China parties in the legislature, thus ensuring that nothing can really get done without China’s ultimate consent. However, everyone is free to criticise the government to their hearts’ content without any fear of being hauled off to jail or sued to bankruptcy by The Man, it’s just that they’ll just ignore you most of the time. This is obviously not ideal, but the freedom of speech does act as a sort of check and balance against China. For example, the government’s attempt to enact a national security law was extremely unpopular. This, along with a large number of other grievances perceived by many to be caused by incompetency of the government, ultimately caused a massive demonstration with several hundred thousands people protesting on the street in July 2003. The government was forced to back down, and no one has dared to bring this up again ever since. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/72 "2010-11-17T04:32:44Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > IN the interest of fighting ignorance, honkies carry a HKSAR passport, which is not a Chinese passport. Details here: [Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passport - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Special_Administrative_Region_passport) . It is, just a special sort. "In accordance with the Basic Law, since the transfer of sovereignty on 1 July 1997, the passport has been issued by the Immigration Department of the Government of Hong Kong _under the prerogative of the Central People’s Government of the People’s Republic of China."_ italics mine ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/73 "2010-11-17T06:32:37Z")
Also, while the UK did not grant full citizenship to everyone in HK when they left, a new category of British nationality was created for anyone who wishes to continue using a British passport. It doesn’t confer the right to live in the UK, and it has been rightfully criticised as a second class citizenship. (BTW, due to EU treaty rights, this also means that many foreigners have more rights in the UK than some British nationals. Think about that.) Some say that this makes the passport useless. However, let’s just say that whether one is travelling on a Chinese or a British passport often makes a difference in the treatment received from the airline staff, airport security and immigration officials. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/74 "2010-11-17T07:08:17Z")
I learned here on the dope that if someone dared to fly a country’s flag on their own private land in the US, other than the US flag, or higher than the US flag, then a lot of people (here on the dope) would consider it their right (and duty?) to go and have words with that person, and maybe even damage their property. It shows that many people are not for “real” freedom, just the freedoms that they care about. It’s a qualified kind of freedom, isn’t it, when you stick your nose into activities of others that don’t directly effect you, IMHO. Haven’t you somehow impinged on their freedom when you make them uncomfortable about doing what they want to do, even if you don’t physically stop them? I think its been shown many times that absolute freedom is not desirable in modern societies, and most people know/believe this. It’s a question of where you draw the lines. America (largely) won’t risk walking the streets with people drinking. Other countries don’t want to risk walking the streets with people packing. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/75 "2010-11-17T07:26:01Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I learned here on the dope that if someone dared to fly a country’s flag on their own private land in the US, other than the US flag, or higher than the US flag, then a lot of people (here on the dope) would consider it their right (and duty?) to go and have words with that person, and maybe even damage their property. > > It shows that many people are not for “real” freedom, just the freedoms that they care about. It’s a qualified kind of freedom, isn’t it, when you stick your nose into activities of others that don’t directly effect you, IMHO. Haven’t you somehow impinged on their freedom when you make them uncomfortable about doing what they want to do, even if you don’t physically stop them? > > I think its been shown many times that absolute freedom is not desirable in modern societies, and most people know/believe this. It’s a question of where you draw the lines. America (largely) won’t risk walking the streets with people drinking. Other countries don’t want to risk walking the streets with people packing. The fact that people feel the right to do something is pretty much irrelevant when the laws on the books would get them in trouble for doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/76 "2010-11-17T07:43:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The fact that people feel the right to do something is pretty much irrelevant when the laws on the books would get them in trouble for doing it. It’s relevant when the same people proclaim that they are defenders of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/77 "2010-11-17T07:47:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure you do.:rolleyes: > > [Same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage_in_Britain) So? That link may say that gay marriage is not recognized in Britain, but it adds that civil unions _are_ - which is more than can be said for the US. No, the US is not the freest country in the world - that’s probably some failed state where anyone can _really_ do whatever the hell they want because there’s no functioning government to stop them. But even in the free-but-functioning category we’re not #1: as others have said, we have all sorts of restrictions on alcohol, drugs, homosexuality, and (for all I know) economic activity and any other number of things that unduly impinge on our freedom. Maybe we believe we have the best _mix_ of freedoms, but that’s a different matter. All that said, I don’t see what the problem is with Americans being especially guarded about our freedoms. Even if we’re not (IMHO) #1, it’s probably a good part of the American psyche - or the psyche of any nation - to stay aware of them. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/78 "2010-11-17T08:04:29Z")
Wouldn’t the freest country be someplace like Somalia, where there is for all intents and purposes no law at all? You can do pretty much anything you want there. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/79 "2010-11-17T08:09:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure you do.:rolleyes: > > [Same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage_in_Britain) We have civil partnerships which are the same as marriage in everything except name and are recognised throughout the whole country, so your :rolleyes: is misplaced. Also we have laws against discriminating against gays in employment or in the provision in goods and services which not only do you not have, there are politicians in your system vehemently arguing that it’s right that people be allowed to discriminate in this area. We’re also in the process of now of considering the move to full gay marriage, and because of civil partnerships showing anyone who was inclined to think the world would fall apart if gays could have anything like marriage that that wouldn’t happen, it’s likely to happen without the long and fractious problems you’re having (despite appeals to the constitution for rights for gays, which apparently it doesn’t apply to, or for recognition of existing gay marriage, which it seems in this issue the states get to pick and choose when they implement the full faith and credit clause on). But by all means, carry on shouting “it’s against god!” and “separate but not equal!” at one another whenever the issue is raised, because that’s really moving the issue forward. So :rolleyes: back. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763/80 "2010-11-17T09:42:00Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > If you took the top 10 from the cite provided by **Giles** i.e. Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Canada, USA, Denmark & Chile, you couldn’t say there is a common history of overthrowing despots. _Ireland_ and _Chile_ don’t have strong independence-from-despots narratives? Are you kidding? I agree that outlawing simply alcohol consumption (rather than intoxication, or public disturbance) is in the opposite direction of freedom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-the-freest-country-in-the-world-really/560763.md?page=5)