# US to Control Iraqi Populace with Agony Rays
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 21, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349 "2004-09-21T17:02:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/21 "2004-09-21T20:31:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> This is torture- plain and simple. It’s deliberate and indiscriminate infliction of severe pain on men. women, children, old people and babies so we can get our jollies.
Be fair, **Diogenes.** It’s not for jollies, it’s for crowd control. Just like tear gas, rubber bullets and fire hoses.
Not that that makes it a good idea.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/22 "2004-09-21T20:39:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> We used to be the good guys.
And now we’re Klingons.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/23 "2004-09-21T20:40:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> This is torture- plain and simple.
Wrong, unless you are going to claim that ALL police action against rioters is torture. It’s how the device is used that determines if it’s torture, not the device itself. If we tied someone down and used this weapon on them, it would be torture. Your definition of torture would include all conventional weapons as well as any physical force by any police anywere.
> [@](#):
>
> It’s deliberate and indiscriminate infliction of severe pain on men. women, children, old people and babies so we can get our jollies.
It’s simply impossible to have a rational discussion with you about anything related to the Iraq war, and that’s sad. You’re generally one of the posters around here I enjoy debating with the most…
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/24 "2004-09-21T21:19:53Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Wrong, unless you are going to claim that ALL police action against rioters is torture.
We are not the police, we are the invaders. I do not concede that we have any authority to put down riots in Iraq. If we don’t like the insurgency, we have the option to leave, not to torture.
> [@](#):
>
> It’s how the device is used that determines if it’s torture, not the device itself. If we tied someone down and used this weapon on them, it would be torture. Your definition of torture would include all conventional weapons as well as any physical force by any police anywere.
Torture, by definition, is the deliberate infliction of physical pain. In this case, the device does not seem to have the ability to discriminate between who is a “terrorist” and who is not. The potential to cause grievous physical pain to innocent people, particularly to children and infants, renders the use of the device for crowd control idefensible, IMO.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/25 "2004-09-21T21:24:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Torture, by definition, is the deliberate infliction of physical pain. In this case, the device does not seem to have the ability to discriminate between who is a “terrorist” and who is not. The potential to cause grievous physical pain to innocent people, particularly to children and infants, renders the use of the device for crowd control idefensible, IMO.
One could make exactly the same argument agains tear gas. The “agony ray” horrifies (some of) us chiefly because it’s a new thing.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/26 "2004-09-21T21:30:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> We are not the police, we are the invaders. I do not concede that we have any authority to put down riots in Iraq. If we don’t like the insurgency, we have the option to leave, not to torture.
You are simply stating that, IYHO, you don’t think US soldiers have the authority to set foot in Iraiq. That’s another debate.
> [@](#):
>
> , by definition, is the deliberate infliction of physical pain. In this case, the device does not seem to have the ability to discriminate between who is a “terrorist” and who is not. The potential to cause grievous physical pain to innocent people, particularly to children and infants, renders the use of the device for crowd control idefensible, IMO.
Torture and pain may be considered similar in a verfnacular analysis, but not in a legal analysis. Otherwise, we’d have banned tear gas, pepper spray, and painful arm holds long ago. Or is this another one of those things that courts have gotten wrong? 🙂
If we are going to use a narrow, vernacular definition of “torture = pain”, then enjoy yourself (no _double-entdre_ intended). I don’t think you’ll be able to interest many other posters in that debate.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/27 "2004-09-21T21:36:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> One could make exactly the same argument agains tear gas. The “agony ray” horrifies (some of) us chiefly because it’s a new thing.
I _do_ make the same argument against tear gas.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/28 "2004-09-21T21:41:06Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> I _do_ make the same argument against tear gas.
Well, at least you’re consistent when you’re wrong. 🙂
And, btw, I’m not sure if this “agony ray” is so unconstrained as you imply. It is certainly more controllable than tear gas. I’ve seen demonstrations of this type of weapon on TV, and you aim it similiarly to the way you’d aim a large flashlight-- on specific person you wish to affect. It’s much, much more similar to a gun than to tear gas.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/29 "2004-09-21T21:41:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> I _do_ make the same argument against tear gas.
Even if it were used, for instance, not by our troops in Iraq, but by police officers trying to put down the post-Rodney-King L.A. riots?
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### Author:  [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/30 "2004-09-21T21:46:46Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> The army is developing lots of non-lethal weaponry like this. Makes a lot of sense, if you ask me, given the new types of “wars” we are ingaged in. I suppose we could go back to using lethal weapons instead, if there’s too much protest.
I think it may be the case that the more-lethal methods currently available may ultimately be more effective in this case, for the reasons that I tried to touch on in the OP. A hundred Americans “in the trenches” weilding riot sticks and rubber bullets with Iraqi security forces sends a very different message then a faceless GI in an armored vehicle causing pain with a technology seen as magical. Rubber bullets and tear gas may cause more immediate casualties, but if they don’t induce as much terror they may make things smoother in the longer run.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/31 "2004-09-21T21:51:50Z")
Can we stop calling this the “Agony Ray”. Kinda spoils the well…
I understand that Rumsfeld is going to rename it the “Patriot Ray”. 😃
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/32 "2004-09-21T21:53:51Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> I think **Metacom’s** got it in one – folks who hear about this device are going to start blaming it for all sorts of ailments, imaginary or otherwise (“The Americans made me sterile with their evil machine!”). And anyone who tells them they have nothing to fear will be greeted by the local equivalent of, “Yeah, _right._”
But [cell phones and microwave ovens are perfectly safe](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/movencellphones.html). No one with half a brain could _possibly_ believe that 300Ghz radiation could cause testicular cancer. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/33 "2004-09-21T21:57:28Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Can we stop calling this the “Agony Ray”. Kinda spoils the well…
>
> I understand that Rumsfeld is going to rename it the “Patriot Ray”. 😃
Might I suggest ‘The Freedom and Democracy Ray’?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/34 "2004-09-21T22:00:00Z")
I propose “Happy Fun Ray!”
Might even be marketable to the S&M crowd . . .
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/35 "2004-09-21T22:05:57Z")
And you thought people playing with laser pointers in movie theaters were annoying…
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/36 "2004-09-21T23:44:33Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> But [cell phones and microwave ovens are perfectly safe](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/movencellphones.html). No one with half a brain could _possibly_ believe that 300Ghz radiation could cause testicular cancer. :dubious:
Tell that to [these folks.](http://www.sarshield.com/)
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### Author:  [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/37 "2004-09-21T23:57:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> This is torture- plain and simple. It’s deliberate and indiscriminate infliction of severe pain on men. women, children, old people and babies so we can get our jollies.
Dude, get some help.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/38 "2004-09-21T23:57:46Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Can we stop calling this the “Agony Ray”. Kinda spoils the well…
>
> I understand that Rumsfeld is going to rename it the “Patriot Ray”. 😃
“Freedom Fryer!” 😃
> [@](#):
>
> And, btw, I’m not sure if this “agony ray” is so unconstrained as you imply. It is certainly more controllable than tear gas. I’ve seen demonstrations of this type of weapon on TV, and you aim it similiarly to the way you’d aim a large flashlight-- on specific person you wish to affect. It’s much, much more similar to a gun than to tear gas.
If this is true then it’s different from the impression I had of a device that simply cooked a large area. If it’s really this controllable and localized then it sounds like something more akin to a taser. I think it would be an ok measure for self-defense, but I don’t like the idea of using pain to manipulate crowds which are not immediately threatening, or to use generalized measures which could hurt the innocent.
It might sound trite but I really am serious about not wanting to cause pain to children.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/39 "2004-09-22T01:15:01Z")
Here’s Global Security’s writeup on Raytheon’s [Vehicle Mounted Active Denial System](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/v-mads.htm)
Some highlights:
> [@](#):
>
> Active Denial Technology uses a transmitter to send a narrow beam of 95-GHz millimeter waves towards an identified subject.
> …
> The 95-GHz energy penetrates 1/64 inch into the skin and produces an intense burning sensation
> …
> According to reports, a 2-second burst from the system can heat the skin to a temperature of 130° F. At 50 °C, the pain reflex makes people pull away automatically in less than a second. Someone would have to stay in the beam for 250 seconds before it burnt the skin,
> …
> Air Force scientists helped set the present skin safety threshold of 10 milliwatts per square centimetre in the early 1990s,
> …
> but heating a layer of skin 0.3 mm thick to 50 °C in just one second requires much higher power and may pose risks to the cornea, which is more sensitive than skin.
> (_2 watts/ cm[sup]2[/sup] for 3 sec damages monkey corneas. The article doesn’t say how much power VMADS puts out._)
> …
> Humans and animals are being used in the test program. All testing is being conducted with strict observance of the procedures, laws and regulations governing animal and human experimentation. The tests have been reviewed and approved by a formal Institutional Review Board with oversight from the Air Force Surgeon General’s Office. The testing is being conducted by the Air Force Research Laboratory’s Human Effectiveness Directorate
There’s a lovely, not to be missed, mockup of the unit mounted on a vehicle at the bottom of the link. I wonder what an RPG would do to that 4 X 4’ chunk of plywood stuck to the top of the truck?
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> It might sound trite but I really am serious about not wanting to cause pain to children.
The link didn’t mention any testing on children. Surely no American child would be used as a Guinea Pig for this. I’ll bet they’ll just watch carefully the first few times they fire it at Iraqi kids, and hope for the best.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-to-control-iraqi-populace-with-agony-rays/265349/40 "2004-09-22T01:31:39Z")
“Active Denial System”? Jeez, who thinks these things up?
“95-GHz millimeter waves” – what are those, microwaves? Infrared?
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