# US training foreign soldiers **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 21, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059 "2014-09-21T03:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/21 "2014-09-21T13:16:41Z")
Back to the OP: Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned is first aid and combat lifesaver skills. That is another valuable skill that can be taught. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/22 "2014-09-21T13:59:23Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > None. A complete waste of time. I once spent over 6 hours trying to teach a concept as simple as “When the enemy shoots at our element, seek a covered/concealed position and immediately return fire. Whoever sees the enemy immediately calls out the direction, distance and description and everyone else echoes what that person says so that everyone hears it.” After 6 hours, there was no progress. None. And that was after giving up on the first lesson, which was formations and order of movement. Just trying to teach them to walk in a specific formation and have them understood which direction they are responsible for watching was impossible. I am sure the terp was explaining everything as I said it. They just didn’t grasp it, and didn’t care to learn. > > When the rounds start coming out in sector, they stay down and let us do everything. Occasionally they might pop up and spray some machinegun fire or shoot an RPG in a random direction, but we were lucky to even get that out of them. Sometimes they just run off or back to base. One time I thought they had run off, but it turns out they just went to the other side of the hill and hid out until everything was over. We were about to leave them, since I thought they already left. But we sent some guys to go look around for them. There they were, acting as if nothing had happened. > > No concept at all. Everything is personal to them. If I tell them what to do, it must be a request, like from a friend to a friend. They didn’t seem to understand rank structure lower than company commanders. There was the boss, and then everyone else was equal. If, as your experience seems to indicate, it’s a waste of time, why continue with this effort? Is it for political gain? Iraqi/Afhan nascent troop moral? Mollification… what? So what are the lessons learned, based on your experience with training and what do you anticipate the results will be with respect to training the ‘FSA’? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/23 "2014-09-21T14:20:40Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > None. A complete waste of time. I once spent over 6 hours trying to teach a concept as simple as “When the enemy shoots at our element, seek a covered/concealed position and immediately return fire. Whoever sees the enemy immediately calls out the direction, distance and description and everyone else echoes what that person says so that everyone hears it.” After 6 hours, there was no progress. None. And that was after giving up on the first lesson, which was formations and order of movement. Just trying to teach them to walk in a specific formation and have them understood which direction they are responsible for watching was impossible. I am sure the terp was explaining everything as I said it. They just didn’t grasp it, and didn’t care to learn. > > When the rounds start coming out in sector, they stay down and let us do everything. Occasionally they might pop up and spray some machinegun fire or shoot an RPG in a random direction, but we were lucky to even get that out of them. Sometimes they just run off or back to base. One time I thought they had run off, but it turns out they just went to the other side of the hill and hid out until everything was over. We were about to leave them, since I thought they already left. But we sent some guys to go look around for them. There they were, acting as if nothing had happened. > > No concept at all. Everything is personal to them. If I tell them what to do, it must be a request, like from a friend to a friend. They didn’t seem to understand rank structure lower than company commanders. There was the boss, and then everyone else was equal. > > Chechens were respected among US Soldiers. When word comes down that a Chechen mortan team or sniper team is in the area, ears perk up. I’ve had both operating in areas that I’ve patrolled, and I’ve been engaged by a Chechen mortar team. It’s the only time I’ve seen the enemy walk rounds in on the target. They obviously understand successive bracketing. Basically, your related experience validates my opinion that it’s a complete waste of time to keep sending ‘advisers’ to that part of the world, since at the first sign of hostile action, the local troops will turn tail and run regardless of fire/personnel superiority. The latest decision to send in advisers to train untrainable troops that we supposedly already trained is just wasted money and effort. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/24 "2014-09-21T17:08:13Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/25 "2014-09-21T19:58:59Z")
This has been seen in many military organisations in Third World cultures around the world. Imparting instruction is one thing. Changing mindsets is quite another. Many of these people have no concept of leadership, beyond personal charisma. Setting an example to be emulated is foreign to them. “_First my men, then myself_” is foreign to them. Taking a chewing-out, accepting it and moving on is foreign to them. Sinking one’s personal interest in the common goal is foreign to them. e.g., if you have been sent on an expensive technical course in America and returned with a box full of technical literature the last thing you want to do is start training people to do the stuff you have learned. Your newly acquired knowledge now makes you indispensable and that literature goes straight in your office safe and stays there. Acquiring status, rank, and wealth is your goal, not improving unit efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/26 "2014-09-21T23:14:45Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > This has been seen in many military organisations in Third World cultures around the world. … That was certainly my experience working with indigenous Air Force & Army personnel all across Latin America back in the Reagan era. Some units & people were better than others, but none were much good. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/27 "2014-09-22T09:51:37Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > You couldn’t possibly be more wrong. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? As a Marine Corps fireteam leader I have shown foreign friendlies how ‘spray and pray’ tactics don’t work. It doesn’t matter the noise of their burst…all that matters are hits. What am I misinformed about? How have I failed people in the training of small unit tactics? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/28 "2014-09-22T10:25:53Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > As a Marine Corps fireteam leader I have shown foreign friendlies how ‘spray and pray’ tactics don’t work. It doesn’t matter the noise of their burst…all that matters are hits. I’m curious: do you think they learned from you? **Bear\_Nenno** says his attempts to teach were a complete waste of time. Also, how does this total lack of combat discipline work on the battlefield? Say, in Syria right now. When Isis-aligned gangs fight Al-qaeda aligned gangs, and we read in the news that a certain city has fallen to the attackers. Obviously, somebody wins, even with their lousy training and discipline. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/29 "2014-09-22T11:44:27Z")
Now I have heard one lesson picked up by Iraqis from working with Americans is that people of different races and religions can work together. Have you all seen this? I’ve heard of foreign soldiers surprised that an American force consisted of soldiers of different races and backgrounds and they start wondering why they have their internal disputes. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/30 "2014-09-22T11:59:00Z")
Bear I certainly don’t have the same amount of experience that you do. But in my experience the only ones worth a damn were the Pesh. Did you have any experience with them? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/31 "2014-09-22T12:05:21Z")
**Bear\_Nenno** , is it possible that you’re just not a very good teacher? I mean, I’m sure that you’re good at combat tactics and unit discipline and all of the other things you were trying to teach, but being good at those things isn’t the same thing as being good at teaching them. Do you also have experience trying to teach these things to new American recruits, for comparison? Boot camp drill instructors are heavily underappreciated, but they’re educators, and many of them are damn good ones. And to everyone wondering about the question in general, remember, we’ve been on the other side of this process ourselves. Remember from your history courses, the role that Lafayette played in the American Revolution? What France did with us is the same thing we’re trying to do with our new allies. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/32 "2014-09-22T12:08:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Bear\_Nenno** , is it possible that you’re just not a very good teacher? I mean, I’m sure that you’re good at combat tactics and unit discipline and all of the other things you were trying to teach, but being good at those things isn’t the same thing as being good at teaching them. Do you also have experience trying to teach these things to new American recruits, for comparison? Boot camp drill instructors are heavily underappreciated, but they’re educators, and many of them are damn good ones. > > And to everyone wondering about the question in general, remember, we’ve been on the other side of this process ourselves. Remember from your history courses, the role that Lafayette played in the American Revolution? What France did with us is the same thing we’re trying to do with our new allies. Bear was an Army Drill Sergeant. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/33 "2014-09-22T12:22:35Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I understand that Arab countries use Soviet tactics which don’t emphasize or expect accuracy from basic infantrymen but even then, I’d expect veterans to realize the usefulness of aiming. In my experience, the Soviets taught their soldiers marksmanship even if they didn’t mythologize it as we tend to do in the US. Marksmanship instruction began in middle school as part of PE classes for both sexes and continued until graduation. The young men then received additional instruction during their training for two years of compulsory service. Overall, they actually received more training and trigger time than a typical American Army or Marine Corps recruit, I expect. Definitely more than a Seaman or Airman gets. I have shot with a good many Soviet-era veterans and their wives. When handed an example of a weapon they trained on (AK, SKS, Makarov, Dragunov) they were all competent marksmen, even if they hadn’t fired a weapon since discharge. Soviet doctrine emphasized massed fire, but that fire wasn’t random. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/34 "2014-09-22T12:23:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And to everyone wondering about the question in general, remember, we’ve been on the other side of this process ourselves. Remember from your history courses, the role that Lafayette played in the American Revolution? What France did with us is the same thing we’re trying to do with our new allies. I don’t think that’s an apt comparisson. Culturally, the french and the english were no strangers to one another. Teaching farmers to be soldiers was a challenge, but not as big a challenge as the one the west faces when it comes to middle eastern cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/35 "2014-09-22T12:38:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Loach** : > > Bear was an Army Drill Sergeant. OK, I did not know that. If you really are making an informed comparison, then I accept that the Middle Eastern trainees really are just harder to train. And **Quicksilver** , I didn’t say that we were doing the same thing that Lafayette did. I said we were trying to. That doesn’t mean we’re succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/36 "2014-09-22T12:49:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And **Quicksilver** , I didn’t say that we were doing the same thing that Lafayette did. I said we were trying to. That doesn’t mean we’re succeeding. Fair enough. But we’ve been trying for a very long time without success. Up thread, I asked what the ‘lessons learned’ were with regards to western involvement in the area to date as far as getting our ‘alies’ to learn to fend for themselves in the face of insurgencies like ISIS. It seems like the US has learned nothing and is about to train and arm the FSA to prove once again that they’ve learned nothing. But it’s hard for me to believe that no lessons were learned given the posts by **Bear\_Nenno**. So why does the US insist on continuing to do more of the same? ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/37 "2014-09-22T13:17:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Fair enough. But we’ve been trying for a very long time without success. Up thread, I asked what the ‘lessons learned’ were with regards to western involvement in the area to date as far as getting our ‘alies’ to learn to fend for themselves in the face of insurgencies like ISIS. It seems like the US has learned nothing and is about to train and arm the FSA to prove once again that they’ve learned nothing. > > But it’s hard for me to believe that no lessons were learned given the posts by **Bear\_Nenno**. So why does the US insist on continuing to do more of the same? regrettably, there seems to be no viable alternative. Either we attempt to train “friendlies”, send in US troops, or do nothing. Obama has been trying the last for some time. Even that hasn’t worked. No one publicly wants to send in US troops. What is left? And while Arabs aren’t going to learn either western military tactics or western democracy, there can be winners there. Perhaps this time around the US can find a way to have “friendlies” win. I’m not holding my breath, but it isn’t going to cost much and creates a US footprint where we can interdict some bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/38 "2014-09-22T13:46:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t think that’s an apt comparisson. Culturally, the french and the english were no strangers to one another. Teaching farmers to be soldiers was a challenge, but not as big a challenge as the one the west faces when it comes to middle eastern cultures. A very good friend of mine, now a full bird colonel, trained officer candidates from the ME. His opinion was that they were the worst soldiers in the world, even compared to some irregular forces. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/39 "2014-09-22T14:01:32Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > A very good friend of mine, now a full bird colonel, trained officer candidates from the ME. His opinion was that they were the worst soldiers in the world, even compared to some irregular forces. At one point in my varied Army career I attended Armor Officer Basic at Fort Knox. We only had one foreign officer in our class which was unusual. He was a Bosnian Croat. A great guy and a very good officer. But most of the foreign officers that would go through the officer training tended to be from the Middle East. They had a very bad reputation. Mostly because officers from those countries tended to be spoiled rich kids. When you are a young lieutenant being trained with a bunch of other lieutenants guess who is doing all the hard work? If your tank busts track there are no privates around. It’s a bunch of LTs turning the wrenches. Lots of ME officers expected everything to be done for them. And there was nothing that could be done if they refused to work. Of course that is a much different demographic than who is being trained in Iraq or Afghanistan. It was the younger sons of oil barons of countries like Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-training-foreign-soldiers/699059/40 "2014-09-22T14:48:23Z")
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