# US transfers sovereignty to Iraqi government. What now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525 "2004-06-28T11:08:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/41 "2004-06-29T00:38:16Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I have no clue what you’re talking about. I never mentioned your “cause”. Well I’ll be darned – you didn’t. But I swear I read that — it just ain’t there anymore. > [@](#): > > You’re defining the average guy-opposing-American-occupation as “terrorist” - they are insurgents, usually organized in militias. The actual organized terrorist groups are different people, usually foreigners. Where did you get the you’re "defining the average guy-opposing-American-occupation as “terrorist” - from? Look again at my posts above. I’m not taking about “average guys” — at least in my mind. Now if the “average guy” - that you speak about - means what I’ve described as a “terrorist” - then yes, I call those people “terrorist,” and it doesn’t matter where they happened to be born. Whether Jordon, Iran, Iraq, or the United States. Is that how you draw the distinction? If so I don’t agree at all. Terrorist actions can certainly be taken against the U.S. government by U.S. citizens for their stated reason that the U.S. government isn’t legitimate. So - maybe I don’t understand why birth place or citizenship decides whether one is a terrortist or isn’t — if that’s your distinction — ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/42 "2004-06-29T00:49:47Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > What I’m trying to say is that civil war and massive insurgency are not inevitable. Democracy can work in Iraq, but obviously we can’t expect it to be strong and stable right away. Kinda all hinges on the meaning of “right away”, doesn’t it? Finding Iraq worthy of being described as a “strong and stable” (and free) democracy would be a wonderful thing. I wish I had confidence it would occur within the next 5 years. I’ll give credit to Bush on this latest move - it was shrewd. What now? I’m not optimistic. I expect to see much of the same on the ground, and I’m hoping for marked improvement with a freely elected government. But I just don’t see it stable for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/43 "2004-06-29T00:57:42Z")
And **Zagadka** - considering the common definition of terrorism cited below ---- flying planes into buildings full of innocents, exploding bombs in the middle of bus loads of morning commuters, and lopping off heads and disseminating the related video and pictures serves what other purposes? **No matter where you come from —** > **[Terrorism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism)** > > Terrorism is, in its broadest sense, the unlawful use of intentional violence to achieve political aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel). The terms "terrorist" and "terrorism" originated during the French Revolution of the late 18th century but became widely used internationally and gained worldwide attention in the 1970s during the Northern Ir There... **Terrorism** is a tactic of violence that targets civilians, with the objective of forcing an enemy to favorable terms, by creating fear, demoralization, or political discord in the attacked population. **"Terrorism"** is also used as a pejorative characterisation of an enemy’s attacks as conforming to an immoral philosophy of violence, in a manner outside of warfare, or prohibited in the laws of war. > **[Definition of terrorism | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/terrorism)** > > Definition of terrorism from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more. **ter·ror·ism** n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/44 "2004-06-29T07:57:47Z")
[**Bob Harris**](http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2004_06_27.html#001625) summarizes the US-Iraq sovereignty transfer: > [@](#): > > So. Iraq is now a sovereign nation. > > Yuh-huh. > > With a government nobody elected. Whose security is so fraglie it had to take power in secret because of fear of massive violence. Which is likely to declare martial law any minute. Which will be enforced by occupying troops, which aren’t leaving. > > Things are so bad that nobody could even guarantee the security of a _single public event,_ which was, let us remember, supposedly the culmination of purpose for the whole invasion. > > I cannot believe the media is reporting any of this with a straight face. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/45 "2004-06-29T13:56:55Z")
Its not so weird if you’re a Nixon survivor. Even in his last hours, when you could hardly see for the smoke from smoking guns, the talking heads acted like it was some sort of mournful and dignifed ceremony, instead of the political exorcism it truly was… “…respect the office, if not the man…” Hard to do when the office is occupied by a seeping human pustule. “…proof that the system works…” After about four fucking years! And only, _only_ because dimwit Butterfield blew the pooch about the tapes. “…a somber moment in our history…” Not me. Got my dancing shoes on! ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/46 "2004-06-29T16:29:05Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Design the plan that stops the one guy with a credit card and a rental truck and I’m with ya — because that’s what it will take to “stop terrorists.” In Iraq? Surround the building where you plan to have your ceremony with concrete barriers. Long term middle east problems? Realize that Fundamentalist Muslims think America is a nation where everyone drives a Hummer while watching DVDs and getting blowjobs from trophy wives, while they can’t even get a job because the economy’s in the toilet (unless you own an oil field), and work to change that situation through a series of cultural exchanges. (Also known as the ‘Israel is widely seen as a horrible place to live except by the thousands of people who go for a visit and keep going back’ plan.) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/47 "2004-06-29T16:40:10Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > And **Zagadka** - considering the common definition of terrorism cited below ---- flying planes into buildings full of innocents, exploding bombs in the middle of bus loads of morning commuters, and lopping off heads and disseminating the related video and pictures serves what other purposes? **No matter where you come from —** > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) > > **Terrorism** is a tactic of violence that targets civilians, with the objective of forcing an enemy to favorable terms, by creating fear, demoralization, or political discord in the attacked population. > > **"Terrorism"** is also used as a pejorative characterisation of an enemy’s attacks as conforming to an immoral philosophy of violence, in a manner outside of warfare, or prohibited in the laws of war. > > [Terrorism Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism) > > **ter·ror·ism** n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. _yawn_ OK, continue delluding yourself as much as Al Qaeda members, if you like. It is your mind to be closed, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/48 "2004-06-29T18:54:04Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > In Iraq? Surround the building where you plan to have your ceremony with concrete barriers. Assuming “concrete barriers” prevent terrorists from conducting activity against the occupants of **that building and those occupants** — just assuming – how does that stop terrorism elsewhere or by other methods? It doesn’t – and there’s another problem. Buildings full of people and people moving here and there are around everything and everyone. Remember, I as the terrorist, have the luxury of picking my targets, picking my time, and picking my victims. If “concrete barriers” actually do stop me as a terrorist than I’ll just kill ten times a hundred around various parts of the country – or film a few murders and stick ‘em up on the Internet, or poison the well water, or shoot people shopping, or gas ‘em on the job, or mine the streets or blow up schools or buses or toilet seats. > [@](#): > > Long term middle east problems? Realize that Fundamentalist Muslims think America is a nation where everyone drives a Hummer while watching DVDs and getting blowjobs from trophy wives,… Well if that is REALLY the problem ---- it should be easy enough to cure. If true we’ll just stop because the Fundamentalists don’t like that – or we can teach them that us driving Hummers and getting hummers from babes is OK – for us. BUT – it appears that the terrorists already here must be sending back false Hummer/trophy babe information – at least in regards to the volume. Either that or I ain’t getting my share ---- and THAT makes me mad enough to kill a few thousand innocents - Or if not thousand - cut the head off some person I don’t even know. > [@](#): > > …while they can’t even get a job because the economy’s in the toilet (unless you own an oil field), and work to change that situation through a series of cultural exchanges. (Also known as the ‘Israel is widely seen as a horrible place to live except by the thousands of people who go for a visit and keep going back’ plan.) If cultural exchanges, are what the Fundamentalists want, (and I sort of doubt this by the way) than cultural exchanges are the answer. However, as I recall, they’re not all likely to be real excited about “cultural exchanges” since they seem to hate our decadent culture. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/49 "2004-06-29T19:10:17Z")
> [@](#): > > flying planes into buildings full of innocents 😕 This thread’s still about Iraq, right? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/50 "2004-06-29T19:16:18Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > 😕 This thread’s still about Iraq, right? _whisper_ **Tiger** has a hard time telling the difference between them ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/51 "2004-06-29T19:21:18Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > 😕 This thread’s still about Iraq, right? Yep ---- and what makes you think it isn’t? Context is very important – ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/52 "2004-06-29T19:25:11Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Yep ---- and what makes you think it isn’t? The bit where you posted? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/53 "2004-06-29T19:31:45Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > The bit where you posted? Care to elaborate? Maybe with what “bit” and how that bit doesn’t relate to Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/54 "2004-06-29T19:34:22Z")
Gosh. So many choices. Could of all been avoided if we just never invaded to begin with. It’s only a ‘lose-lose’ situation to the Americans in Iraq because it was a shitty plan to administer Iraq with purely American (de facto) support to begin with. Now they find themselves being faulted for everything that goes wrong because there’s really no-one else to blame, frankly. You can hardly fault people critical of the current situation in Iraq when ‘we’ were advocating something entirely different from the outset of this whole mess. I think they should resolve it. To some those terrorists are freedom fighters. Get rid of the puppet government and leave the country. Truly give power to the Iraqis. If what they want is not democracy, then let it be. Who are we to say anything? ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/55 "2004-06-29T21:32:38Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > I think they should resolve it. Definitely a non-option. You can’t blow up someone’s country and then leave it in ruins for them to clean up themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/56 "2004-06-29T22:56:49Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > Definitely a non-option. You can’t blow up someone’s country and then leave it in ruins for them to clean up themselves. I want out and once we get that I don’t care about Iraq anymore. That whole section of the world is one giant problem that I think should be left ignored. The people in the Middle East have been killing eachother for over 2000 years without pause. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/57 "2004-06-29T23:18:37Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > I want out and once we get that I don’t care about Iraq anymore. That whole section of the world is one giant problem that I think should be left ignored. Gee, what could POSSIBLY go wrong… ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/58 "2004-06-29T23:32:06Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > I want out and once we get that I don’t care about Iraq anymore. That whole section of the world is one giant problem that I think should be left ignored. The people in the Middle East have been killing eachother for over 2000 years without pause. You’re wrong about the history, and misguided in your opinion. People in the Middle East haven’t been “killing each other for over 2000 years” any more than the rest of the world, and arguably much less so than in Europe and Asia. Ignoring the problems in the Middle East leads to more attacks like what we saw here in America and recently in Spain. The problem with simply leaving an entire region of the world alone is that we are internationally dependant on each other. Without the Middle East, there is no Europe or America as we know it. It’s that simple. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/59 "2004-06-30T05:56:46Z")
No cite handy, but I’ve heard several times on the radio, and read in several GD threads, that this interim government is explicitly, legally prohibited from doing anything to vacate or impair or alter the deals awarded to foreign contractors (e.g., Halliburton) by the Coalition Provisional Authority during the occupation. That is **not** sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525/60 "2004-06-30T06:17:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No cite handy, but I’ve heard several times on the radio, and read in several GD threads, that this interim government is explicitly, legally prohibited from doing anything to vacate or impair or alter the deals awarded to foreign contractors (e.g., Halliburton) by the Coalition Provisional Authority during the occupation. That is **not** sovereignty. Well, the contracts are with the United States so Iraq couldn’t alter them. As long as the US has the preponderance of force in the area I don’t suppose Iraq could refuse to allow performance either. And in any event why should they? I don’t think the contracts cost Iraq anything and might even get done some work that needs doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-transfers-sovereignty-to-iraqi-government-what-now/252525.md?page=4)