# US troop withdrawls from Europe and Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235 "2004-08-17T13:43:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/21 "2004-08-18T06:54:16Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Show me where I quoted ‘wrongly’, and you may have a point. You preceded the quote with a link saying “Kerry is a moron”, which seems clearly designed to make Dopers think - wrongly - that it was in fact Kerry you were quoting. Isn’t that the sort of thing December was banned for? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/22 "2004-08-18T08:04:03Z")
It runs deep. Of course, it is ridiculous that the US maintains so many troops in Europe. It takes time. and some day (hopefully) there will not be all these American bases here in Britain (and elswhere), if only for reasons of common-sense. Other imperialist adventures will dictate this reason! In saying this, I am not some sort of socialist-anti-imperialist. Reality beckons! It is a pity that imperialism ran away from Rwanda. Right now, every day, horror runs all over Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/23 "2004-08-18T08:26:18Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > :dubious: Quibble all you want; I sure as hell don’t want to subsidize people like that. Quibble ? Your own (unattributed) quote completely contradicts your statement that “Something like a third of them think we staged 9/11.” It’s not “something like a third”, it’s something like a fifth. And what they think is not that the US staged 9/11, but that the current administration _could have_ staged the attack (“die Anschläge selbst im Auftrag gegeben _haben könnte_”) , which is of course another question altogether. (And a badly worded one, at that.) [Sorry, in German.](http://www.zeit.de/2003/31/Umfrage) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/24 "2004-08-18T09:44:12Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > You preceded the quote with a link saying “Kerry is a moron”, which seems clearly designed to make Dopers think - wrongly - that it was in fact Kerry you were quoting. Isn’t that the sort of thing December was banned for? :dubious: Get a grip. Wacko Wesley is on the Kerry team. It is no more a false attribution than the dozens of ‘OMG BUSH DID TIHS!!!’ threads when actually referring to Ashcroft or something. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/25 "2004-08-18T09:56:47Z")
Oh, come on, **Brutus**. First you quote a newspaper report of comments attributed to Wesley Clarke, presenting it to us as a report of comments attibuted to John Kerry. Then, in the same thread, you tell us about a survey of German opinion, materially misrepresenting both the proportion of the population said to hold a certain opinion, and the substance of the opinion itself. Face it, you’re having a bad day, accuracy-wise. Carelessness. Happens to all of us. But, rather than admitting a slip-up or two, you’re defending your mistakes. You apparently think it’s reasonably to present Clarke’s statements as though they were Kerry’s. You deny that this is “misquoting”. When people point out the truth about the German opinion survey, they’re “quibbling”. _Stop digging._ You’re giving the impression of a man who is indifferent to accuracy or truth, and impervious to reason; who, having once adopted a position, is unable to modify it in any way, however untenable it may turn out to be. Keep on with this, and it will tend to undermine the effect of _all_ your arguments. People will doubt the value of your opinions. So much more disarming to say, “Yeah, you got me. I slipped up.” Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/26 "2004-08-18T10:22:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > …But, rather than admitting a slip-up or two, you’re defending your mistakes. You apparently think it’s reasonably to present Clarke’s statements as though they were Kerry’s… I did no such thing. Hey, ignore the meat of the matter, I guess. It is easier than defending Kerry’s position. Add to Wacko Wesley’s statements those of [Mssr. Richard Holbrooke](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/16/troop.realignment/index.html), frontrunner to be Kerrys Secretary of State: > [@](#): > > It didn’t take long for top advisers to Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry to blast the president’s decision. > > “There is no question in my mind that this will weaken our national security. I was ambassador to Germany. I know that the Germans are very unhappy about these withdrawals. The Koreans are going to be equally unhappy,” Richard Holbrooke, and adviser to the Kerry presidential campaign said on CNN Monday. So either Kerry has surrounded himself with advisors that are voicing policy statements that Kerry doesn’t agree with, or they are mouthpeices for the campaign. Since neither have been told to STFU and no contradictory statements have been issued, it is fair to assume that these are the positions that Kerry holds. Or maybe from the radical Right-wing [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/politics/17prexy.html) > [@](#): > > On Monday, his campaign attacked Mr. Bush’s redeployment plan as dangerous and politically motivated, and said it would weaken America’s relationship with NATO. Nope. Nothing contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/27 "2004-08-18T10:39:34Z")
My first thought when I heard this, “Good, let’s give the money to southern European countries that showed support, and at the same time position our military better.” Why we would spend so much money in Germany is beyond me. It’s not really strategic. I don’t see the US having a concern with the UK, Denmark or Norway stirring up shit in northern Europe. Hence, no point in the location. The German government and many citizens (note I didn’t use a blanket statement) are either really against us, or they’re posturing to be seen as “The Country that really is better, stronger and more influential than the US.” Maybe it’s lingering guilt, maybe it’s an attitude a child gets when you take away his allowance, maybe they have some fundie belief that they know best. Whatever it is, they were right along with us on voting to sanction Hussein for violating the truce. Of course, France agrees with Germany, which makes the stance a losing proposition anyway. (Isn’t that the 4th sign of the Apocolypse?) So why not pull the troops and redistribute them? Send them to Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. They could use the money, and we’d be much better positioned to potential trouble spots. Plus, I see no problem training those troops as they are unlikely to become a threat to the US. Now to NK. My thought was “Great, let China handle it.” Here’s why. Let’s say the US pulls all the troops and Kim Jong mentally-Il decides to take the peninsula (sp?). A squirrel can figure out the stance the US has with NK. China knows he’s a pshyco. And China’s economy is far too dependant on the US to side with such a megalomaniac. In addition, it seems to me that China taking care of him once and for all would garner them HUGE benefits in diplomatic relations, aid, and God only knows what else. _I have a feeling this has turned into a hijack, so I’ll stop here_🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/28 "2004-08-18T12:43:11Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Besides, we don’t have large troop contingents in Austria or Sweden, yet we manage to get along fine with them. In Brutus’s vocabulary, does that make us “smarmy” or “weaselly”? Perhaps being hostile to his country is the only way to gain a sliver of respect from Brutus (who for unknown reasons named himself after a guy famous for stabbing a loyal ally in the back, leading, in time, to his own downfall). His line of argument comes across as by turns arrogant and patronizing, leaving a bitter aftertaste of xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/29 "2004-08-18T12:48:02Z")
> [@aegypt](#): > > In Brutus’s vocabulary, does that make us “smarmy” or “weaselly”? > > Perhaps being hostile to his country is the only way to gain a sliver of respect from Brutus (who for unknown reasons named himself after a guy famous for stabbing a loyal ally in the back, leading, in time, to his own downfall). > > His line of argument comes across as by turns arrogant and patronizing, leaving a bitter aftertaste of xenophobia. Hrmm. You did use ‘words’, and kudos for that, but now you should focus on using ‘words’ in a manner that convey a coherent thought. I cannot fathom what the hell you are going on about. It’s ‘xenophobic’ to think that America gets along with Sweden and Austria? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/30 "2004-08-18T12:50:34Z")
> [@aegypt](#): > > In Brutus’s vocabulary, does that make us “smarmy” or “weaselly”? > > Perhaps being hostile to his country is the only way to gain a sliver of respect from Brutus (who for unknown reasons named himself after a guy famous for stabbing a loyal ally in the back, leading, in time, to his own downfall). > > His line of argument comes across as by turns arrogant and patronizing, leaving a bitter aftertaste of xenophobia. I may be half in the bag, but I’m far from being shitfaced. I just can’t figure out what you’re saying here. Can you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/31 "2004-08-18T12:51:38Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Hrmm. You did use ‘words’, and kudos for that, but now you should focus on using ‘words’ in a manner that convey a coherent thought. I cannot fathom what the hell you are going on about. It’s ‘xenophobic’ to think that America gets along with Sweden and Austria? 😕 I swear I’m not following you, just happen to be checking this thread at the same time you are. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/32 "2004-08-18T20:34:12Z")
Well back to the issue… From what I first read air bases and air power will not be reduced much… is that correct ? These airbases have always been important and if Bush does close them would be mucking things up… otherwise infantry and tanksaren’t that useful in europe. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/33 "2004-08-18T22:23:23Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well back to the issue… > > From what I first read air bases and air power will not be reduced much… is that correct ? These airbases have always been important and if Bush does close them would be mucking things up… otherwise infantry and tanksaren’t that useful in europe. The troops from Germany to be removed are the 1st Infantry and the 1st Armored Divisions (correct me if the Divisions are wrong) to be replaced with batallions. There will still be land forces, but in much smaller numbers. And you’re right, the troops and tanks aren’t of much use in that area in the current numbers. Hence the reason to reduce them. From what I know, the Air Force will still be there in huge numbers as planes move faster than tanks and Humvees. Now stop hating America so I can feel safe to live my dream of visiting Brazil. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/34 "2004-08-18T22:32:25Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > So why not pull the troops and redistribute them? Send them to Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. They could use the money, Italy doesn’t particularily need the money. She’s roughly as wealthy as the UK. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/35 "2004-08-18T23:02:21Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I don’t think this issue is quite as cut and dried as you guys are making it out to be, and I also think Kerry’s position is defensible. On balance, wrong. But certainly not idiotic. > > You have to think of the larger geopolitical value to having troops garrisoned around the world. Due to the military presence in Germany, something like 300,000 Americans live fairly integrated in German society. Some would argue that their presence there keeps us tied together somewhat - it’s a constant re-affirmation of allied cooperation. Move all the troops out, and you’ll cause some hostility as Germany is forced to accept a minor shock to its economy. And at a time when Germans are already feeling somewhat hostile to Americans, that might not be a good thing. > > It may also put even more pressure on the EU to move away from the U.S. sphere of interest and start arming more heavily to replace the defensive force it got from having an American tripwire in Europe. These changes won’t be felt next year, or even much in a decade, I’d guess. But over the long haul, it could have substantial repercussions. > > South Korea is a similar situation. Even though withdrawing troops may make sense from a purely strategic standpoint, we have to keep in mind the signals a troop drawdown may send to North Korea. One could be that the U.S. is overextended and occupied elsewhere, and that the time is ripe for an attack. Or more likely, they’ll just get more belligerant and demanding, and less likely to come to the negotiating table. > > But having said that, I think that Rumsfeld’s vision of the military is the correct one. It doesn’t make strategic sense to tie up a good percentage of your forces defending a peaceful, integrated Europe from itself. Garrisoning troops around the world is SO 20th century. The U.S. military has gotten so good at rapid deployment that it’s feasible to keep them home until needed. And also, the universe of likely spots on the planet where U.S. troops may have to go is pretty diverse. It’s not hard to imagine the U.S. having to rapidly deploy forces to the Phillippines, or Venezuela, or Africa, or Taiwan, or Malaysia. When everyone knew where the front was, you could station troops along it. When the front can be anywhere on the planet, the only option is to become more agile and flexible. > > And the Bush administration isn’t exactly running willy-nilly into this. They are talking about a ten year timeframe, which makes sense. Moving 300,000 people out of Germany in one shot would hurt the Germans. It should be done gradually. Sorry but how many German civilians are hurt by this move is not the problem of the United States. Our troops were stationed there first as an occupation force and then to defend against the Soviets. Neither mission exists now so the troops should no longer be in place. As for the 30,000 troops in South Korea, what exactly are they supposed to accomplish against the 1 million plus troops of North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/36 "2004-08-18T23:37:53Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Italy doesn’t particularily need the money. She’s roughly as wealthy as the UK. I didn’t mean the countries are in dire straits, but I doubt they’d turn their noses up at a few million a year and free training. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/37 "2004-08-19T01:42:16Z")
While we’re at it, what about the troops stationed in Saudi Arabia? Correct me if I’m wrong, but our presence their was at the behest of the house of Saud during Desert Storm I, as a bulwark against a perceived threat from Saddam Hussein. With SH in gaol, I would suggest that the first troop movements be to leave the Holy Land: Our presence there is a lightning rod for religious extremists, and the threat that predicated their presence is gone. Why are we still there? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/38 "2004-08-19T03:23:28Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > While we’re at it, what about the troops stationed in Saudi Arabia? Correct me if I’m wrong, but our presence their was at the behest of the house of Saud during Desert Storm I, as a bulwark against a perceived threat from Saddam Hussein. > > With SH in gaol, I would suggest that the first troop movements be to leave the Holy Land: Our presence there is a lightning rod for religious extremists, and the threat that predicated their presence is gone. > > Why are we still there? :dubious: We’re not. At least not in any significant numbers. We moved everyone to Qatar. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/39 "2004-08-19T05:38:02Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well back to the issue… > > From what I first read air bases and air power will not be reduced much… is that correct ? These airbases have always been important and if Bush does close them would be mucking things up… otherwise infantry and tanksaren’t that useful in europe. The final word is not in yet , on the air power side of that coin , but Ramstein is being retained for a military hub , as well as some hospitals. Regarding squadron or wing level deployments , its assumed that the airforce is going to be following the armys lead in establishing mix and match, wing size units , probably the air battle unit or some such. If I was to guess , the strikers are going to be more in Italy , and some of the eastern european countrys , while the trash haulers are going to be operating out of germany and england. Declan ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235/40 "2004-08-19T12:27:51Z")
> [@Stinkpalm](#): > > :dubious: We’re not. At least not in any significant numbers. We moved everyone to Qatar. Geez Louise. **Why didn’t anybody tell me?** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-from-europe-and-korea/260235.md?page=3)