# US troop withdrawls in Europe and Asia: Good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913 "2004-11-09T22:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/1 "2004-11-09T22:39:58Z")
I was reading [this](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133728,00.html) article on Fox today and thought I’d bring it up to debate if anyone is interested. Basically it talks about proposed US troop withdrawls…or I guess I should say deployed in other ways in some cases…in Europe and Asia. It seems like a smart idea to me, especially our European deployed troops (I’m a bit more wary of removing troops from South Korea right now). A few things from the article: > [@](#): > > The Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks (search) made plain that the newest threats to Western democracy aren’t armies or even enemy governments, but rather shadowy players willing to die in self-declared violent crusades, rendering force-by-force matchups irrelevant. Because the United States’ global defense posture has been “virtually frozen in place” for 50 years, Rumsfeld said, a military that stresses agility and flexibility is now needed. > U.S. troop levels in Germany have steadily declined over the past two decades from a quarter million at the Cold War’s close to the 73,000 U.S. troops currently stationed there. With the communist threat gone and frontlines shifting to the Middle East and North Africa, the Pentagon’s new plan will split up the cluster of firepower there and spread smaller units east and south. > > The two large Army divisions in Germany will be replaced by “more advanced, rapidly deployable, capable units such as Stryker light-armored vehicle (search) brigades and airborne units supported by advanced training facilities,” Pentagon spokesman Maj. Paul Swiergosz told [FOXNews.com](http://FOXNews.com). > [@](#): > > In the East, American forces are most heavily concentrated in Korea and Japan. While nearly all of the 40,000 troops in Japan are likely to remain, 12,000 of the 37,000 troops stationed along the Demilitarized Zone (search) are slated to leave the Korean peninsula starting in 2005. > > When asked if pulling troops from the region sent a dangerous message to North Korea, Rumsfeld answered with: "An emphatic ‘no.’ > > “We know that sheer numbers of people are no longer appropriate measures of commitment or capabilities,” the secretary said. > > American troops have been a presence on the DMZ since 1953, when a truce ended major fighting in the Korean War (search). But as soldiers stationed there like to say, there’s nothing “D” about the DMZ — with the two Koreas still technically at war, it remains one of the tensest places in the world. > > U.S. defense officials have argued that pulling American troops out of the North’s immediate line of fire would better position them for a counterattack. Rumsfeld has already told Seoul of plans to bring the Army’s 2nd Infantry Division, stationed just south of the DMZ, farther south from the border — an idea that coincides with South Korea’s plans to pull its capital down toward the tip of the peninsula to reduce the threat from the North. So, is it a good idea to withdraw or re-deploy our troops in Europe? I’m unsure exactly why we still DO have so many troops in Germany to be honest. How about in South Korea and Japan? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/2 "2004-11-09T23:24:42Z")
Well, this setiment: > [@](#): > > “We know that sheer numbers of people are no longer appropriate measures of commitment or capabilities,” the secretary said. has really bit us in the butt in Iraq, so I’m a little wary when Rumsfield starts making predictions about how all we need in the military is 6 guys, each armed with a trillion dollar weapon systen. That said, S. Korea certainly has more then enough people to man the front lines should that situation go bad, and honestly I’d much rather the S. Korean army take most of the casulties to defend S. Korea, if possible. They have been training for a war with the North for 50 years, and it will be their homes on the line, so they’d probably be _more_ effective then US troops should the worst happen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/3 "2004-11-09T23:40:54Z")
Europe is surely wealthy enough to field its own military and finance its own defense. I see no reason for the US to have a military presence there. Let the Europeans take care of the next Milosevich. Korea is a little dicier, but if we’re going to shell out money and men to defend that pennisula, I’d like to know what we’re getting in return. Surely, though, the changes in geopolitics since the days of the Soviet Union and a potentially dangerous “Red” China would speak to a rethinking of US troop deployment throughout the world. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/4 "2004-11-09T23:52:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Europe is surely wealthy enough to field its own military and finance its own defense. I see no reason for the US to have a military presence there. Let the Europeans take care of the next Milosevich. Oh. Good. Europeans with armies. Nothing bad could possibly come out of that _looks around nervously_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/5 "2004-11-09T23:54:32Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Oh. Good. Europeans with armies. Nothing bad could possibly come out of that _looks around nervously_ If France and Germany went to war again, which side would we be on? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/6 "2004-11-10T00:05:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If France and Germany went to war again, which side would we be on? Good question. Nobody likes the French, but on the other hand, history advises against siding with Germany during a World War. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/7 "2004-11-10T00:10:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Let the Europeans take care of the next Milosevich Errrrrrr…it was Nato that went into Kosovo, and US withdrawls from Europe have no effect on their commitment to future Nato action. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/8 "2004-11-10T00:17:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Errrrrrr…it was Nato that went into Kosovo, and US withdrawls from Europe have no effect on their commitment to future Nato action. Come on. Yeah, it was NATO, but who flew most of the sorties? And who was the driving force behind the military action? The Europeans were followers, not leaders in that military action. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/9 "2004-11-10T02:14:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Come on. Yeah, it was NATO, but who flew most of the sorties? And who was the driving force behind the military action? The Europeans were followers, not leaders in that military action. Please. The largest air force carried out the most sorties? What a surprise. And to suggest that Europe was passive in the intervention is insulting (note that the US hasn’t exactly pulled its weight in subsequent peacekeeping - [http://www.kosovo.mod.uk/natoforces.htm](http://www.kosovo.mod.uk/natoforces.htm) ) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/10 "2004-11-10T02:30:29Z")
I certainly don’t see the need to continue to garrison troops (at a cost to ourselves) in Europe…certainly not in WESTERN Europe, let alone in Germany. Its past time for the Europeans to take care of their own defense…not that anyone is likely these days to attack them. Who, exactly, is a threat to Europe today? The Europeans have been more than happy to let the US pick up the bill for defense…while badmouthing us. Thats certainly their right, and I’m certainly not advocating withdrawing from NATO…but I think we can better use those troops by re-deploying them elsewhere. Korea though…I’m unsure how wise it really is for us to withdraw any troops from there. Certainly not when tensions between us and North Korea are so high. It sets a bad tone IMO. I can certainly understand why we would withdraw troops from Japan…again, they can take care of their own defense, such as it is. There actually IS a threat against them in the form of North Korea, but I don’t think its a serious threat to Japan. We certainly still have real commitments in the East though…Japan, South Korea, Taiwan. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/11 "2004-11-10T03:21:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Please. The largest air force carried out the most sorties? What a surprise. And to suggest that Europe was passive in the intervention is insulting (note that the US hasn’t exactly pulled its weight in subsequent peacekeeping - [http://www.kosovo.mod.uk/natoforces.htm](http://www.kosovo.mod.uk/natoforces.htm) ) The fundamental question is whether or not the US should have troops staitioned in Europe. I say no. There is no reason why the EU as a whole, can’t have a larger Airforce than the US, if they don’t already. The action against Kosovo had nothing to do wtih NATO’s charter, and should have been handled exclusively by the Europeans themselves. Why wasn’t it? And more to the point, why should it be the next time around? The US, as part of NATO, should certainly be part of any action in defense of another NATO member. That is the purpose of NATO. But I see no reason why the European powers can’t police their own backyard. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/12 "2004-11-10T03:34:55Z")
Don’t worry, as far as future Kosovos are concerned, the EU’s already trying to deal with the US dominance of Nato decisions, with the [EURRF](http://www.european-defence.co.uk/directory-eu3.html). Although in typical EU fashion, nobody can agree on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/13 "2004-11-10T13:20:03Z")
Army bases in Europe… not much use. I would imagine that deploying to the balkans from Germany or from the US won’t make that much difference in time… Now if the US lets go of Airbases… then they are being stupid. Air power still relies a lot on having bases in many places. To defend those bases you need a few soldiers on the ground too. I’d suggest the US keep a token force in Germany. Less than 20-30k men. As for Korea… unless the troop withdrawl is some positive “signal” to N.Korea… then removing them isn’t the best idea. ``` Personally I think Bush is withdrawing troops for some bad reasons... Punish Germany and to free more troops for Middle Eastern adventures... even if I think there is no need for troops in Europe. ``` ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/14 "2004-11-10T18:03:51Z")
Ich weiß nicht. Ich bin neutral auf diesem!! :eek: :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/15 "2004-11-10T18:44:32Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Army bases in Europe… not much use. I would imagine that deploying to the balkans from Germany or from the US won’t make that much difference in time… > > Now if the US lets go of Airbases… then they are being stupid. Air power still relies a lot on having bases in many places. To defend those bases you need a few soldiers on the ground too. I’d suggest the US keep a token force in Germany. Less than 20-30k men. > > As for Korea… unless the troop withdrawl is some positive “signal” to N.Korea… then removing them isn’t the best idea. > > ``` > Personally I think Bush is withdrawing troops for some bad reasons... Punish Germany and to free more troops for Middle Eastern adventures... even if I think there is no need for troops in Europe. > > ``` I don’t think so, theres no strategic viability for them anymore, Germany isn’t a trouble spot, and the USSR has long gone. Other than maybe a small contingent for Bosnia, theres no other reason. If the troop movement is for anything, its to strengthen the occupation of Iraq and be quick to move troops to trouble spots around the world,which are much more south than they were 15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/16 "2004-11-10T19:40:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Other than maybe a small contingent for Bosnia, theres no other reason. If you mean by this that there are no other trouble spots in Europe, you’re forgetting Kosovo, which still has a very major need of peacekeeping troops (though admittedly not necessarily American ones). ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/17 "2004-11-11T04:57:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I certainly don’t see the need to continue to garrison troops (at a cost to ourselves) in Europe…certainly not in WESTERN Europe, let alone in Germany. Its past time for the Europeans to take care of their own defense…not that anyone is likely these days to attack them. Who, exactly, is a threat to Europe today? > -XT I am sure that American deployment to Europe had everything to do with defending the helpless Europeans against the U.S.S.R. and nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy against the U.S.S.R. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/18 "2004-11-11T05:15:49Z")
Like we got a choice? We’re already dragging retired guys back in _involuntarily_, and no one, but no one, wants to use that word that starts with “d” and rhymes with “shaft”. I think we’re likely to start with immigration mercenaries. Speak good enough English, sign up for a three-four year stint, maybe two if it involves combat, and you’re on the fast track to citizenship. Upside: offers the opportunity for motivated people to become US citizens. Downside: kinda icky. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/19 "2004-11-11T05:25:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …and no one, but no one, wants to use that word that starts with “d” and rhymes with “shaft”. Believe me, Br’er **elucidator** , ‘daft’ does come to mind. As for this whole strategic realignment, it only makes sense. It’s not like we are _leaving_ Europe, just redeploying around the Old World to reflect that A) We need quicker access to MENA/Central Asia, and that B) Russia is no longer a threat. Ditto for Japan and Korea. We aren’t leaving, we are adjusting to the new reality. South Korea no longer needs America to man the DMZ; their armed forces are top-notch. They need our air power far more than they need our grunts. Until a few more countries grow up and want to play Global Cop, we are going to be deploying around the world quite a bit for the foreseeable future. Why not realign our forces to allow for more efficient deployments? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troop-withdrawls-in-europe-and-asia-good-idea/273913/20 "2004-11-11T05:40:44Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > …Until a few more countries grow up and want to play Global Cop, we are going to be deploying around the world quite a bit for the foreseeable future. Why not realign our forces to allow for more efficient deployments? Oh, is that what we want? Perhaps our fellow nations look with less rosy scenarios. They might well be forgiven for concluding what we _really_ want is them to play Robin to our Batman, to throw thier soldiers and their treasure into whatever cause we determine to be urgent and worthy. And “deploying around the world”? What a splendid gift for euphemism you have, **Brutus**! Just for myself, I think I should very much like to see a whole bunch less “deploying” being done. The innocent business of “deploying” too often involves the rather messy stuff about “getting dead”. Tiresome business, that.