# US troops are fucking up the ruins of ancient Babylon **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010 "2005-01-16T08:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/41 "2005-01-17T00:04:13Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Degas is overrated, but I’d sacrifice a Wal-Mart shopper to preserve _Les Demoiselles D’Avignon_. Not me, obviously, 'cause the whole point is to save art for me to enjoy. Of course, I agree with nearly everything **gobear** says, but perhaps because I see them as said in a Noel Coward/George Sanders manner. OK, a little Patsy Stone, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/42 "2005-01-17T00:49:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > But I DO have all the requisite data, fucko. I know that the invasion of Iraq was unnecessary, unjustified, illegal and immoral, therefore there can be no justification for setting uo their genocide gear in Babylon, no matter what. Like others have said, you don’t know that there weren’t extenuating circumstances behind the supposed destruction, or that the US did it and not Iraqis or US allies. Oddly enough, the camp was probably erected to PROTECT the ruins. (The only other possibility was that the camp thought the ruins were a viable fortification, which is laughable when faced with partisans with rockets. However, they would probably be viable against guerillas with only guns.) If the Army wasn’t there the ruins would be less protected, more likely to be looted. And as others have mentioned, if we hadnt toppled Saddam, say what you will about the human death toll, but Saddam ALSO did his share of looting and shoddy reconstruction of the ruins. > [@](#): > > Once a **criminal** breaks into your house, it doesn’t matter what his excuse is for pissing on your carpet. Begging the question. Criminal only if illegal. See rest of post. Sentences truncated for easier comprehension by kindergarteners. > [@](#): > > We have no legal or moral right to be in that country at all. That information is sufficient to determine that fucking up Babylon is an atrocity. Last time I checked, there wasn’t a World Court that we submitted our legal authority to, dumbass. Our legal right is our army and the acquiescence of other major powers. And while I’m certainly not convinced of the moral underpinnings of the Iraq misadventure, I can’t help but think it was the morally correct thing to do, in fact should have been done after GW1. Not to mention: why should I argue morals with someone who gets off on stretching the truth to piss off people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/43 "2005-01-17T01:09:28Z")
No self-defense = no justification. There can be no extenuating circumstances, once we have broken into someone else’s country without just cause, for setting up our slaughter gear on precious historical sites. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/44 "2005-01-17T01:26:38Z")
> [@](#): > > 100,00o civilians murdered for no motherfucking reason whatsoever is genocide. How is that NOT genocide? Well, you start with the fact that they were not targeted for death based on their ethnicity or even their nationality. You then move on to the fact that a lot of them have died at the hands of their own countrymen or the hands of _other_ foreigners who have entered the country for their own purposes. You then note that the 100,000 number has a lot of serious flaws in the methodology used to arrive at it and note that a number of people who are working really hard to document actual deaths by U.S. forces have not even made it to 20,000 (horrible enough in its way). Putting these and other factors together, a dispassionate observer actually _could not_ arrive at a declaration of genocide. You can make an arguable case for illegality, immorality, wrong-headed stupidity, and a host of other accusations, but there are more than sufficient reasons for avoiding the hyperbole of calling this situation genocide–such as not alienating people who might consider supporting your position, but who will be put off by their perception that you have no more credibility (and, therefore, no more basis for support) than PETA. * * * I am not pleased that with a few thousand hectares of desert to choose from, we set up a camp on top of a valuable archaeological site. I suspect that we tripped into this in the usual manner of really bad decisions: set up a defensive area to _protect_ the ruins, discover that we need to beef up that and surrounding forces, begin expanding the base until we inadvertantly begin tromping on stuff we initially intended to preserve. I hope we clear off of there, soon, but I do not have a lot of faith in this administration or their ability to make good decisions. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/45 "2005-01-17T04:15:53Z")
I’d just like to point out that the Babylon complex was overseen by local curators, as a fairly substiantial portion of it had been built over by the regime. That does not excuse the careless handling of the site. My feelings about the war might get me in trouble if I were to express them publicly while still on active duty. ``` For obvious reasons, I cannot post a link to where I posted my pictures but I can send it to people via email. I should point out, too, that the ruins were buried in sediment, and over that Saddam built three-foot thick floors, and forty-to-fifty foot tall walls. A great portion of the site has been covered over in this way, by the crudest construction there is. In some cases, one can see the arches peeking out of the sand. There was a reconstructed theatre and a grand palace. There were also souvenir shops and so forth. ``` Regarding the validity of the war, I cannot comment on it before I’m off of active duty. But I will say this: I have more combat experience than any of the chickenhawks that sent me here, and that has made a difference in how I interact with people. I’ve met a lot of Iraqis. If there’s a small shred of truth in those national generalizations----‘the French are snooty’, for example----one day the Iraqis will be justly famed for their kindness, friendliness, and decency. Any civilian death is a tragedy, and some of my Iraqi friends have been killed just for associating with us. The level of danger to the average Iraqi now is utterly astounding. That is our fault. It wasn’t that way before. Every child I’ve seen is thin, and I spent a lot of time on convoys. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/46 "2005-01-17T04:36:35Z")
When I heard about this issue, something completely puzzled me. And i’m still mystified. Why exactly did they choose to install a military camp in one of the world’s most famous archeological site, of all places? The only idea I could come up with was that maybe they tought the ruins themselves could be somehow used as an already made defense work, but honestly, it doesn’t seem to make much sense. Does anybody has a clue? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/47 "2005-01-17T04:52:40Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > When I heard about this issue, something completely puzzled me. And i’m still mystified. > Why exactly did they choose to install a military camp in one of the world’s most famous archeological site, of all places? See my comment above. The site was extensively developed, and it’s located a bit away from the town of Al-Hilla. A mass grave was discovered in Hilla in April of last year. ---
**Author:** ![infamousmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d6d6ee/32.png) [@infamousmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infamousmom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/48 "2005-01-17T07:29:44Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > “Right to life” only applies, it would seem, to those who are part of one’s own belief system/race/creed/nationality, **gobear’s** thoughts on Wal-Mart shoppers notwithstanding. Hah. To the neocons, the right to life ends at birth. As for the destruction of Babylon, keep in mind it’s being done at the direction of a bunch of righteous Christian puppeteers in DC who probably only hazily remember that somewhere in the Bible the Babylonians were described as the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/49 "2005-01-17T08:57:24Z")
> [@margin](#): > > For obvious reasons, I cannot post a link to where I posted my pictures but\*\* I can send it to people via email. \*\* I should point out, too, that the ruins were buried in sediment, and over that Saddam built three-foot thick floors, and forty-to-fifty foot tall walls. A great portion of the site has been covered over in this way, by the crudest construction there is. In some cases, one can see the arches peeking out of the sand. There was a reconstructed theatre and a grand palace. There were also souvenir shops and so forth. Margin When you get a free moment , could you email me the link, my email address should be in profile , thanks. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/50 "2005-01-17T13:10:45Z")
Not gonna open this thread, it’s just going to upset me, not going to open this thread, it’s just going to upset me… fuck. This stuff is irreplacable. We don’t know everything about ancient Babylon. Such disregard for our past is just sickening. Call me an ass all you like, but I agree with **gobear** , to a certain extent. I’d never feel comfortable making those sorts of decisions, but these sites and artifacts have immesurable value, and I would approve of a lot of steps to protect them. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/51 "2005-01-17T13:40:29Z")
Despite the sheer breathtaking incompetence of the occupation to date, it might be said that the occupiers at least _meant_ well in this case (locating themselves there partly to **deter** looters of the site), and that the archaeological contamination is only comparable to what Saddam did. In any case these are _not_ the Pyramids - there is [almost no](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1391042,00.html) original structure visible to the untrained eye. As for what looters might do to the site when the US troops pull out some time after the elections, in the absence of Saddam’s brutal but _secure_ regime, one dreads to think. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/52 "2005-01-17T13:59:03Z")
> [@LaurAnge](#): > > Not gonna open this thread, it’s just going to upset me, not going to open this thread, it’s just going to upset me… fuck. > > This stuff is irreplacable. We don’t know everything about ancient Babylon. Such disregard for our past is just sickening. > > Call me an ass all you like, but I agree with **gobear** , to a certain extent. I’d never feel comfortable making those sorts of decisions, but these sites and artifacts have immesurable value, and I would approve of a lot of steps to protect them. Weaping. Copious tears. I’m sure. For the daily disregard that you, your magistrates, and your ancestors have [routinely given](http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/) to Indian culture and history for hundreds of years, such as literally [shitting on our graves](http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/2003/2003april.htm#dump). > [@](#): > > A federal judge has ruled that state workers can start building a waste dump site and fish-cleaning area for campers on a parcel of land along the Missouri River that includes a Native American burial site. > > […snip…] > > Tribal officials criticized Piersol’s ruling and will meet as early as Thursday to discuss a possible appeal, according to Mary Wynne, tribal lawyer. > > “To build a sewer on top of the remains of ancestors is beyond what the Lakota culture can comprehend,” Wynne said. “It creates a large gap between the plaintiffs and the defendants.” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/53 "2005-01-17T14:14:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Weaping. Copious tears. I’m sure. For the daily disregard that you, your magistrates, and your ancestors have [routinely given](http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/) to Indian culture and history for hundreds of years, such as literally [shitting on our graves](http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/2003/2003april.htm#dump). **Lib** , you’re being more nuts than usual; **LaurAnge** is Canadian and she has no relation to the policies of our nation. And you can only yell at half of me; the other half is pissed as well (although my dad’s ancestors, being Choctaw, are buried in Missisippi and Alabama) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/54 "2005-01-17T14:20:23Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > **Lib** , you’re being more nuts than usual; **LaurAnge** is Canadian and she has no relation to the policies of our nation. And you can only yell at half of me; the other half is pissed as well (although my dad’s ancestors, being Choctaw, are buried in Missisippi and Alabama) I have no quarrel with you, and I’m glad you’re pissed. But I’m afraid the Canadians don’t get a pass. Canada might be the half-bath of North America, but it’s a toilet all the same. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/55 "2005-01-17T15:38:22Z")
Lib, it’s still better than what the Brits did to mummies in the Victorian era. Unwrapping parties. Mummy medicine. Burning them in locomotives. It’s not good, heaven knows, but at least it’s not targeted desecration. Which shouldn’t make you feel any better. If it helps you feel any better, though, remember, my mother’s side of the family is _gone_. And it wasn’t Hitler that did it, it was the Russians. And the family members are dead. And the towns and graveyards for five hundred years are gone, and plowed under and no more on the landscape. I dunno, Lib, what _should_ we do? There’s a lot of dead people in this country. Heck, I bet they outnumber the living. (Especially in certain wards in Chicago.) Eventually, people build over graveyards. Happens in NYC all the time. Usually they move most of the bodies, first, but, not always. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/56 "2005-01-17T15:43:56Z")
One addition, after reading the bits I missed by Gobear. I agree with him. I do. Except in one minor detail: Who chooses. See, I’d risk my life, I’d do something that might well mean my death, to save art, or books. Especially great art. I wouldn’t ask anyone else to do it, but when it comes down to it, if the choice is the Mona Lisa or me… hell, I’d do it. Because some things are more important than my life, and one of them is civilization. I wouldn’t ask anyone else to do it, though. Sure, the needs of the many outweigh the few, or the one. But the _one_ has to choose, or it becomes tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/57 "2005-01-17T16:50:02Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I dunno, Lib, what _should_ we do? There’s a lot of dead people in this country. Heck, I bet they outnumber the living. (Especially in certain wards in Chicago.) Eventually, people build over graveyards. Happens in NYC all the time. Usually they move most of the bodies, first, but, not always. I’m not saying walk on glass. After all, the conquering is over and the victor calls the shots. But the same thing applies in Iraq. If LaurAnge wants to cry over the desecration of a nonexistent Babylon, fine — then cry too over desecrations everywhere. Otherwise, shrug it all off. I thought she reacted like someone at a ball game who has just come back from the restroom and, upon hearing the crowd cheer or boo, begins to cheer or boo instinctively while looking around for what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/58 "2005-01-17T17:23:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’m not saying walk on glass. After all, the conquering is over and the victor calls the shots. But the same thing applies in Iraq. If LaurAnge wants to cry over the desecration of a nonexistent Babylon, fine — then cry too over desecrations everywhere. And how do you know she’s not? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/59 "2005-01-17T17:48:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And how do you know she’s not? A valid and compelling question. I must admit that I have no evidence that she does not condemn all desecration equally. I stand corrected, and apologize to LaurAnge. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010/60 "2005-01-18T00:47:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > A valid and compelling question. I must admit that I have no evidence that she does not condemn all desecration equally. I stand corrected, and apologize to LaurAnge. Two points: First, as **gobear** pointed out, I’m not American. Also true, as you pointed out, Canadians don’t get a pass either. Then again, all of my relatives were too busy being oppressed in shtetels and being killed in pogroms to oppress any First Nations. My family, like most Jewish families, are fairly recent immigrants, haivng moved here shortly before the Holocaust. Second, in fact, I do cry over desecration of all ancient things. I’m an ancient historian, currently finishing my BA and starting my Masters next year. It’s my JOB to cry over destroyed ancient artifacts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-are-fucking-up-the-ruins-of-ancient-babylon/285010.md?page=4)