# US Troops kill seven women and children - Iraqi setup? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585 "2003-04-01T00:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/1 "2003-04-01T00:03:33Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=iraq](http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=iraq) Apparently some US soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division killed 7 women and children in a vehicle that refused to stop at a checkpoint. > [@](#): > > It said soldiers motioned for the driver to stop but were ignored. The soldiers then fired warning shots, which also were ignored. They then shot into the vehicle’s engine, but the van continued moving toward the checkpoint, according to the statement. A van that just happens to be loaded with woman and children, approaches a checkpoint near where a sucide bomber blew up another checkpoint a few days before. Refuses to stop or respond to warning shots, forcing the soldiers to open fire. Does this seem a little too coincidental? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/2 "2003-04-01T00:23:06Z")
No. Rather shows how the US, when claiming to wage a “humanitarian war”, is taking on a very hard task indeed. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/3 "2003-04-01T01:01:44Z")
Questions that come to mind. - Why wound you not stop after being fired on? I dont care if you dont speak the language, a rifle shooting in your direction and a bullet in your radiator is the universal language of “come closer and you die.” \*\*possible scenario is broken brakes but you couldve swerved out of the road. \*\*possible scenario is driver tried to stop but was killed or severely wounded in radiator warning shot. - Is it just me or does anyone find 13 women and children riding in a van with one male really suspicious? Doesnt the Qoran forbid travelling with a male that is not related to you? - Why werent there signs in Arabic to begin with and a buffer zone before the checkpoint? \*Why doesnt anyone ever try to shoot the tires? ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/4 "2003-04-01T01:11:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Does this seem a little too coincidental? Yes. That was my first thought. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next van that refuses to stop is another suicide bomber. I feel terrible for the dead people and the soldiers as well, but if the reports are accurate, I don’t see what choice they had. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/5 "2003-04-01T01:16:19Z")
**I feel terrible for the dead people and the soldiers as well, but if the reports are accurate, I don’t see what choice they had.** They didn’t have much of a choice. The people pursuing this war on the other hand, did. ---
**Author:** ![Splutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@Splutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splutter)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/6 "2003-04-01T01:17:40Z")
Did it occur to you guys that these Iraqis may have been terrified of their heavily armed “American Liberators”, and panicked? ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/7 "2003-04-01T01:23:38Z")
We don’t really know what happened. The official version is that the van refused to stop. Another possibiliy is that the soldiers just panicked and shot at the van. ---
**Author:** ![Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b782af/32.png) [@Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermann_Cheruscan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/8 "2003-04-01T01:23:53Z")
I would bet my last dollar that the Iraqi military was holding the children of these women hostage, and they told them to crash that gate and bypass security, or their children die. What would you do? ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/9 "2003-04-01T01:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\ ***I feel terrible for the dead people and the soldiers as well, but if the reports are accurate, I don’t see what choice they had.** > > They didn’t have much of a choice. The people pursuing this war on the other hand, did. \*\* And your point is what exactly? Please explain it to me like I am three years old, because I am not understanding you here. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/10 "2003-04-01T01:50:09Z")
**Rhum:** Hehe, i think i’ll abstain from the three-year-old lingo, really! 😉 My point is that these kinds of events as a consequence of this war was very much not unpredictable. Ergo this war was and is a huge gamble with civilian life. It should only have been started on **very** solid grounds. It was not. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/11 "2003-04-01T02:00:27Z")
Whatever grounds the war was, or was not, started on has nothing to do with the question at hand, which is whether or not it is possible, or even likely, that the bus incident was deliberately orchestrated to make American troops look like killers of ‘innocent’ women and children. The “three years old crack” was out of line, I apologize for that. It is just frustrating to see every single thread invaded with expressions of anti-war views. There are plenty of threads dedicated to that. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/12 "2003-04-01T02:09:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > **I feel terrible for the dead people and the soldiers as well, but if the reports are accurate, I don’t see what choice they had.** The Washington Post is reporting that, immediately after the shooting, the 3rd Division captain in charge of the checkpoint said: > [@](#): > > _from the full story linked in the OP’s link, about 2/3rds of the way down_ > **You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn’t fire a warning shot soon enough!** That tends to support the idea that 3rd Divison soldiers are really high strung these days, and that the occupants of the van didn’t have a lot of chance to stop. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/13 "2003-04-01T02:19:27Z")
Heres the WP article: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61229-2003Mar31.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61229-2003Mar31.html) The said division captain had enuf time to order a warning shot, observe late warning shot, order a shot into the radiator, observe results then order firing into the van. Like I said earlier I would put my whole weight on the brakes or at least get off the road if I see anyone firing at me. This van did not stop and as a result lives were lost. The Marines would feel super awful but they did the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/14 "2003-04-01T02:20:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > **Why wound you not stop after being fired on? I dont care if you dont speak the language, a rifle shooting in your direction and a bullet in your radiator is the universal language of "come closer and you die."** If someone were shooting at me, the last thing I’d want to do is stop. I’d step on the gas and try to get the hell out of there. It’s not easy to tell the difference between “stop or the next shot will kill you” and “we _will_ kill you no matter what.” ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/15 "2003-04-01T02:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Whatever grounds the war was, or was not, started on has nothing to do with the question at hand, which is whether or not it is possible, or even likely, that the bus incident was deliberately orchestrated to make American troops look like killers of ‘innocent’ women and children. The question the OP poses is suggesting that Saddam Hussein or people lojal to him are the ones who are _really responsible_ for the killings of those civilians. Such a claim without any more evidence than the conspiratory speculations of the OP is pretty weak. In your post you seem to agree with this claim. Then i believe you indicated that either way the soldiers doing the actual shooting cannot be held _morally responsible_ for the killing of civilians since they had no way of knowing the women in the vehicle were civilians. I agreed in part and indicated an authority which i believe to be (in part) responsible for such events happening at the moment. > [@](#): > > The “three years old crack” was out of line, I apologize for that. **It is just frustrating to see every single thread invaded with expressions of anti-war views.** There are plenty of threads dedicated to that. It’s seldom pleasant to be invaded by an alien power, huh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/16 "2003-04-01T02:22:13Z")
[The Washintgon Post Article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61229-2003Mar31.html) > [@](#): > > Dealing with the gruesome scene was a new experience for many of the U.S. soldiers deployed here, and they debated how the tragedy could have been avoided. Several said they accepted the platoon leader’s explanation to Johnson on the military radio that he had, in fact, fired two warning shots, but that the driver failed to stop. And everybody was edgy, they realized, since four U.S. soldiers were blown up by a suicide bomber Saturday at a checkpoint much like theirs, only 20 miles to the south. BTW **hansel** , that quote was originally posted by me, just so we are all clear. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/17 "2003-04-01T02:29:20Z")
Ah. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/18 "2003-04-01T03:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*It’s seldom pleasant to be invaded by an alien power, huh? 😉 \*\* Unless, of course, the “invading alien power” is attempting to liberate you from life under a fascist regime with a documented penchant for chemical genocide/fratricide, rape squads and institutionalized torture. Barring magic wands or pointless thought experiments, tragedies like this are largely inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/19 "2003-04-01T03:50:35Z")
—\*Why doesnt anyone ever try to shoot the tires?— Because that doesn’t stop speeding vehicles (it wont even necessarily slow them unless they are going really fast to begin with), it just makes them more unstable. —It’s not easy to tell the difference between “stop or the next shot will kill you” and “we will kill you no matter what.”— An important possibility, but then, we may never know now. ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/20 "2003-04-01T04:18:24Z")
I saw a picture in the papers today. It was among other pictures of US soldiers resting, playing chess, reading porn, etc. This guy was reading the bible,… and was wearing a bandana on his head that clearly read “KILL’ EM ALL” Might the young soldiers be switching to “Vietnam” mode ? If so… what will happen to the “liberate the Iraqi people” premise ? 😕 :mad: I don’t blame the 20 year old soldiers, who frankly, where trained to kill. I’m blaming the 60 year old politicians who either don’t have a clue in spite of their age, or they simply don’t give a damn and reason that as long as they can dish out cheesy one-liners to an eager crowd, they’ve got God on their side. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585.md?page=2)