# US Troops kill seven women and children - Iraqi setup? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585 "2003-04-01T00:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/121 "2003-04-02T15:26:55Z")
I can’t _wait_ for the Bush apologists to wave this off. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/122 "2003-04-02T15:31:41Z")
So, dare we hope for apologies from _Azael, msmith, Rhum Runner, Hermann Cheruscan, Simbelmyne, The Calculus of Logic, X~Slayer(ALE), Shodan, Toaster52 and Faux News_ to Bakhat Hassan and others for desecrating the memory of their loved ones? ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/123 "2003-04-02T15:49:24Z")
**RedFury** wrote: > [@](#): > > In the meantime, consider those ten (it was ten, not seven) dead Iraqi women and children “liberated.” I’m sure they are quite grateful. A terrible tragedy, to be sure. But maybe they would have been better off without the US? > [@](#): > > In The Guardian, a British paper that can hardly be characterized as conservative, there was a dispatch from Safwan, Iraq, liberated in the first days of the war: "Ajami Saadoun Khilis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of The Guardian’s Egyptian translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming. ‘You just arrived,’ he said. ‘You’re late. What took you so long?’ " From [the Village Voice](http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0314/hentoff.php) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/124 "2003-04-02T15:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\ ***RedFury** wrote: > A terrible tragedy, to be sure. But maybe they would have been better off without the US? > > From [the Village Voice](http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0314/hentoff.php) \*\* And your point is? For every quote of a satisfied Iraqi we’ve seen hundreds wailing their grief and hatred at the slaughter of their loved ones by the allies on our TV’s, vowing revenge. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/125 "2003-04-02T15:55:39Z")
**BF** that’s not the point. The point (to me anyway) is that some people seem to trying very very hard to place blame on a ridiculous conspiracy theories rather than see the event for what it was. A FUCK UP. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/126 "2003-04-02T15:59:54Z")
Oh and a fuck up that I blame the troops involved on way more than the civilians. The Washington Post article is pretty damning to the soldiers IMO. Some people seem incapable of accepting that maybe some of the troops that are there are young under trained and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/127 "2003-04-02T16:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > **I can’t _wait_ for the Bush apologists to wave this off.** Maybe **msmith** will accuse me again of “being a thread killer” as she did the first time I expressed my outrage with this thread. It would only give me the smallest sense of satisfation if that is exactly what I’ve done. When I read threads like this one, I need to keep reminding myself that not all Americans are as callused as Azael, msmith, Rhum Runner & Co. That I need to focus on people like RandySpears, yojimbo, Collounsbury, rjung and many others on this board. Otherwise, it would be too easy to fall prey to the circle of hatred that is being perpetuated and augmented in Iraq as we speak. In fact, as seen by this thread, the outer rings have already made it to American shores. And to the victims of this tragic blunder, may they finally be allowed to RIP. Surely they’ve earned that much. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/128 "2003-04-02T16:23:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\ ***BF** that’s not the point. The point (to me anyway) is that some people seem to trying very very hard to place blame on a ridiculous conspiracy theories rather than see the event for what it was. A FUCK UP. \*\* I understand. I think that there are those who wish that there was a logical explanation for this FU (IMHO), but then again, there seems to be an equal amount of posters who feel that our troops are all sportin’ ragin’ wood to waste Iraqi women and children. Tell you what, we’ll swap the Fox news for the BBC, so we can see all the dismembered bodies and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and you can see all of the happy Iraqis on the other side of the coalition forces. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/129 "2003-04-02T16:29:03Z")
Good lord, can you people actually read what is written? Has ANYONE here expressed any contempt or anytthing less than sorrow for the death of innocent people? Please point me to it, because I haven’t seen it. What has been expressed is speculation that this event may have been more than it seemed. Such speculation is not unfounded. This recent article from **RedFurry** would seem to support the idea that this was a tragic mistake. Fine. No one has ever denied the possibility that that would prove to be the case. How hard is that to understand? **Yojimbo** to call a possibly deliberate attempt to get civilians killed by the Iraqi government a “ridiculous conspiracy theor[y]” is just laughable. This is not speculation that the world is flat. Iraq has a history of using civilians to further its own ends. If you are going to deny that, then I think it is you that is being “ridiculous”. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/130 "2003-04-02T16:29:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BF_ > there seems to be an equal amount of posters who feel that our troops are all sportin’ ragin’ wood to waste Iraqi women and children Strawman. Certainly no such posters in this thread. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RedFury_ > When I read threads like this one, I need to keep reminding myself that not all Americans are as callused as Azael, msmith, Rhum Runner & Co. That I need to focus on people like RandySpears, yojimbo, Collounsbury, rjung and many others on this board. Sorry, I’m Swedish. Thanks anyway! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/131 "2003-04-02T16:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\ ***RedFury** wrote: > A terrible tragedy, to be sure. But maybe they would have been better off without the US? \*\* If being alive counts for anything, to be sure, these victims, indeed, would have been. Kind of obvious, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/132 "2003-04-02T16:35:30Z")
**Rhum:** I’ll repost this from way back when you all thought this was a setup, so that you may understand our sentiments better. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RandySpears_ > It is in this situation i urge you to consider the possibility that things are, in fact, what they look like. In that case you have wrongly accused at least one innocent, quite possibly dead person. **But since you don’t bother to specify who / how many of the people in the vehicle you think are [behind the setup] you are actually accusing all of them.** Dead people with friends and relatives. (Bolding added) ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/133 "2003-04-02T16:37:52Z")
Oh, but I see now that you obviously **still** think it’s a setup, in the face of the testimony of the people in the vehicle… Well, then i guess there’s not much hope really. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/134 "2003-04-02T16:39:35Z")
**Randy** Since no one ever accused anyone of doing anything, I think it is you simply looking for something where nothing exsists. Please point to one post where I or anyone else has accused the driver of having run the checkpoint on purpose. I believe I have consistently stated that I thought it was possible that such might be the case. Such belief is not unfounded, and is not unreasonable in light of other suicide attacks and civilian abuses from the Iraqi regime. If you want to read speculation as an accusation that’s fine, but don’t hold me morally responsible for your misreading of my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/135 "2003-04-02T16:40:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > **Oh and a fuck up that I blame the troops involved on way more than the civilians.** Absolutely. What a cluster fuck. Whoever ordered the soldiers to open fire needs to be tried and punished. I don’t fucking care if there was a suicide bomber at a different checkpoint. If you want to liberate the Iraqi people, you have to accept the fucking risk. There is no other way. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/136 "2003-04-02T16:44:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Absolutely. What a cluster fuck. Whoever ordered the soldiers to open fire needs to be tried and punished. Tried and punished? For what? It was tragic that this happened, but the soldiers did the right thing. Which “fucking risks” are you suggesting the troops accept? Should they take off their helmets? No guns? Maybe they should liberate Iraq with candy and balloons. Obviously, there is no other way. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/137 "2003-04-02T16:47:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Randy Since no one ever accused anyone of doing anything, I think it is you simply looking for something where nothing exsists. Please point to one post where I or anyone else has accused the driver of having run the checkpoint on purpose. I believe I have consistently stated that I thought it was possible that such might be the case. Such belief is not unfounded, and is not unreasonable in light of other suicide attacks and civilian abuses from the Iraqi regime. If you want to read speculation as an accusation that’s fine, but don’t hold me morally responsible for your misreading of my posts. So, for sake of the argument. Suppose then I start a thread “Rhum Runner: Kiddyfiddler?” Suppose further that I maintain it is possible that Rhum Runner is in fact a “kiddyfiddler”. Then I might suggest that it is not completely unreasonable that Rhum Runner is a “kiddyfiddler” since he is a poster to a message board and posters to message boards have been known to also be “kiddyfiddlers”. Now. Would you say i was “accusing” you of being a “kiddyfiddler” or not? Would it even matter? Give it up. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/138 "2003-04-02T17:13:11Z")
**RAndySpears** wrote: > [@](#): > > Strawman. Certainly no such posters in this thread. Did I miss any? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > **I feel terrible for the dead people and the soldiers as well, but if the reports are accurate, I don’t see what choice they had.** > > They didn’t have much of a choice. The people pursuing this war on the other hand, did. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ChaosGod \* > I saw a picture in the papers today. It was among other pictures of US soldiers resting, playing chess, reading porn, etc. This guy was reading the bible,… and was wearing a bandana on his head that clearly read “KILL’ EM ALL” > > Might the young soldiers be switching to “Vietnam” mode ? > > If so… what will happen to the “liberate the Iraqi people” premise ? > > 😕 :mad: > > I don’t blame the 20 year old soldiers, who frankly, where trained to kill. I’m blaming the 60 year old politicians who either don’t have a clue in spite of their age, or they simply don’t give a damn and reason that as long as they can dish out cheesy one-liners to an eager crowd, they’ve got God on their side. > [@](#): > > _posted by OliverH_\*\* > Sorry, doesn’t cut it. Especially not from people who have never been invaded. The responsibility is flat square on the soldiers by international law alone. > > Your argument amounts to ‘Kill them all, let God sort them out’ in its final conclusion.\*\* > [@](#): > > _posted by OliverH_ > They didn’t just shoot at the engine, they shot the whole thing with bullets, including the passenger room. Sorry, but you gotta decide whether you are liberator wannabees or flat-out occupiers, and with incidents like that, you don’t increase the credibility of any claims of acting out of benevolence for the Iraqi people. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ChaosGod \* > Yup, I’m sure minimizing casualties is on their . [minds](http://www.geocities.com/gato_negro_9/killemall.jpg) > One of the (british) survivors of friendly american fire said on TV (about US pilots): “They have no respect for human life” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > The OP is just proof-positive that _some_ of you will go to any lenght to “justify” this murderous and inmoral invasion. What you’re doing here is repulsive. > > So far, all your pre-emptive BS has done, along with killing counteless innocents such as these, is fan the flames of hatred of over one billion Muslims while confirming their worse fears about you. Those that weren’t radical before, are well on their way now… > > Congratulations. There’s something to be proud of. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ChaosGod \* > The man in the photograph is John Leonard, Unit 422, Civil Affairs > > He’s wearing a bandana that reads “KILL’EM ALL” > > KILL THEM ALL is the opposite of FREE THEM ALL > > … help me out here Rhum Runner, I can’t figure out all by myself > > this photo can (or could ) be found in [foxnews.com](http://foxnews.com) > and also [here](http://catholiclight.blogspot.com/) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > **RedFury:** > > Now, now, please articulate in a civilized manner what some of us are quitely thinking to ourselves. No need to add more fuel to our own fans of hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/139 "2003-04-02T17:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > **Tried and punished? For what? It was tragic that this happened, but the soldiers did the right thing.** If the investigation shows that adequate warnings were not issued, or warning shots were not used properly, then the commander should be tried for killing 11 or 12 innocent civilians. > [@](#): > > **Which “fucking risks” are you suggesting the troops accept? Should they take off their helmets? No guns? Maybe they should liberate Iraq with candy and balloons. Obviously, there is no other way.** For fuck’s sake, did I say anything even close to suggesting that our soldiers shouldn’t have guns? We’ve got a herd of strawmen in this thread already, don’t add more. You don’t liberate anyone by killing them, unless your goal is to liberate them from life. The risks that need to be taken entail not automatically killing everything in a non-military vehicle that has been given little to no adequate warning. If that means putting soldiers into harm’s way, then do it. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585/140 "2003-04-02T17:22:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > When I read threads like this one, I need to keep reminding myself that not all Americans are as callused as Azael, msmith, Rhum Runner & Co. That I need to focus on people like RandySpears, yojimbo, Collounsbury, rjung and many others on this board. Otherwise, it would be too easy to fall prey to the circle of hatred that is being perpetuated and augmented in Iraq as we speak. I’m trying to decide if I was just insulted or not. 😕 Eh, no difference either way, that poor family won’t get resurrected regardless. > [@](#): > > And to the victims of this tragic blunder, may they finally be allowed to RIP. Not to add any more fuel to the fire, but I was just made aware of [this other incident](http://www.jordantimes.com/Wed/news/news1.htm) that seems to have been overlooked by the Western media. > [@](#): > > **Civilian death toll rises in Iraq** > Thirty-three people, including women and children, died and 310 were wounded in a coalition bombing on the outskirts of the farming town of Hilla, 80 kilometres south of the capital on Tuesday, local hospital director, Murtada Abbas, said. > > He was speaking at the Hilla hospital where a large number of children lay wounded under blankets on the floor due to a shortage of beds. > > Fifteen members of one family were killed nearby late Monday when their pickup truck was blown up by a rocket from a US Apache helicopter in the region of Haidariya near Hilla, the sole survivor of the attack told AFP. > > Razak Al Kazem Al Khafaji, sitting among 15 coffins in the local hospital, said he lost his wife, six children, his father, his mother, his three brothers and their wives. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-troops-kill-seven-women-and-children-iraqi-setup/165585.md?page=8)