# Us versus other mammals **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784 "2023-02-14T18:28:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/21 "2023-02-14T23:20:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’ve been suspicious of “persistence hunting”. A deer can reach a top speed of almost 40 miles an hour. So after 15 minutes of sprinting, it’s like 10 miles away. There’s no such thing as “15 minutes of sprinting”. Deer can’t maintain that speed for anywhere remotely near that long. Maybe a minute, at which point it’s still less than a mile away. Might not even be far enough to break line of sight. And no, the deer won’t be rested enough to repeat that, in the time that it takes a human to sustainably cover that distance. Pronghorns can outrun us (and it’s something of a mystery just why they’re that fast). Horses and dogs are at least in the same ballpark as us, though athletic humans can still beat them. But most animals don’t stand a chance. The other thing that’s probably coloring your impression: If an unarmed human gets into a cage-match fight with, say, a wolf, the human will probably win: These fights mostly just come down to body mass, and humans are bigger than wolves. But like any sensible animal, we’re not happy with “probably”. If I make it a habit of going up against animals that have a 1% chance of killing me, it’s not going to take very long before I’m killed. And it takes an awfully small, helpless animal indeed before the risks become negligible. But then, that’s true of all other animals, too. When a wolf or a bear hunts other animals, there’s a chance the prey will seriously injure or kill the predator. And the predator is none too happy about that, either. But they don’t have a choice. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/22 "2023-02-14T23:29:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Pronghorns can outrun us (and it’s something of a mystery just why they’re that fast). I thought it was pretty well established they developed their speed to escape the [American Cheetahs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cheetah) that are long extinct? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/23 "2023-02-14T23:43:50Z")
A cheetah can run for about a minute. It might make sense, if you’re evolving to outrun a cheetah, to be able to run for a minute and a half. But what’s the sense in being able to run for four hours? Pronghorns are way beyond anything else without wings, and it makes no sense that humans have figured out for anything to be that far beyond all of their competitors. Unless the predator that they evolved to outrun also had comparable long-distance running capability to them? But the predator who could do that wouldn’t be much like a cheetah at all, and you’d still have to ask why that particular evolutionary arms race only played out once, for two animal species, one of which is now extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/24 "2023-02-14T23:45:10Z")
> [@2\_More\_Bits](#): > > The point I am trying to make is that we are somewhat useless without tools. Yes, well, but that’s not really true. We’re pretty big. We have uncanny vision for understanding complicated things near us. Few animals can make sense of details well enough to, for example, read or figure out knots (even if their brains were able to manage that). We’d be better equipped than most animals to figure out the strengths and liabilities of another animal’s situation. We can run, swim, and climb. Plenty of animals can’t do all three of those. Our hands and arms are very versatile. Not many animals could throw a stone at you (though you might point out that makes the stone a tool, fair 'nuff). We can organize in very elaborate ways. Only a very few animals can communicate strategies on the fly, and none seem able to do it as elaborately as we can. Tool use is a specialty of ours, but it’s hardly our only advantage. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/25 "2023-02-15T00:11:53Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I think you’re underestimating humans. A fit 25 year old can out-walk any other land based mammal. All the human would have to do is keep walking up to the other animal and then strangle or beat it to death. The problem you face is that most mammals would be easy to KILL, because humans are larger than almost all mammals, but hard to CATCH, because, well, they’re small, and are skilled at evasion and hiding. Without any sort of tool it would be extremely difficult to catch a squirrel or a mouse or a small monkey. They’re evolved to avoid letting you get close, and humans are not evolved to engage in ambush hunting the way a cat is. The animals too large to hide that easily would be easy to catch but very difficult to kill without a tool. Yes, you absolutely could walk them down. But um, are you going to try to strangle a goddamn antelope to death? A moose? You can’t do that. I’m not even talking about the mammals we usually think of as dangerous - lions and tigers and bears, oh my - but even your larger herbivores will kick the shit out of you. You cannot defeat a damned zebra in hand to hand combat. An orangutan will pull your arms off. Even some smaller animals will be tough nuts to crack; how do you catch and kill a porcupine without tools? A mongoose is an animal you could kill in theory but that sumbitch is gonna fuck you up before you do; you may be lying in a pool of your own blood shrieking in pain before you take him out. Cetaceans and seals are of course also on the uncatchable list. They’d kill you anyway. ---
**Author:** ![motu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/motu/32/259_2.png) [@motu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/motu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/26 "2023-02-15T00:37:34Z")
I would not mess with most burrowers. First, big, long, dangerous claws and they know how to use them. Then add armor (armadillo & pangolin), chemical weapons (skunks), venom (platypus), or ferocity, badgers, wolverines, even weasels is a big no for me. Stick to rabbits, prairie dogs, or gophers, much smaller and evolved to escape, not to confront. Polar bears burrow also. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/27 "2023-02-15T01:30:13Z")
If the spirit of the OP is to imagine humans in some sort of “natural” state, then we should still get rocks or sticks. Our ancestors going back a million years and more would have used rocks and sticks to bash in the heads of animals. And a good rock changes the equation quite a bit - run down even a pretty large herbivore to collapse, find a fist sized rock, approach it carefully, and bash its brains out. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/28 "2023-02-15T05:42:08Z")
One way to look at the question is to see what some of our closest relatives do in such encounters. How well do chimps, bonobos, and orangutans, for example, fare when encountering other, hostile, mammals? Chimps are known to eat meat occasionally, yes? What are they killing and how do they manage it? Also, here’s an interesting article about the top marathoners of the animal world, including horses, pronghorn, camels, and sled dogs - all have great endurance, but humans have the ability to motivate themselves, which makes a big difference in the long run: > **[Are Humans the Best Endurance Athletes?](https://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/g418/animal-kingdom-top-marathon-runners/)** > > Compared to other land mammals, humans are remarkably good at running long distances. But there is plenty of competition out therenature is full of species adapted for running distance. Here's a look at six of the best marathoners in the animal king ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/29 "2023-02-15T06:10:33Z")
This. The sharp flints, the pointy sticks, the hot, flickering stuff IS our claws and fangs. As also noted, even large game can be killed by a human without tools, via persistence hunting. As to a squirrel shredding a human, yeah right. Animals in the couple pounds range and sufficiently cornered can be readily stomped / punched / squeezed to death by a naked guy with determination. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/30 "2023-02-15T07:12:09Z")
With dogs, they can easily be disabled by spreading their front legs, wide apart, and thus dislocating their shoulders. Whether you can do that in an active fight is up to the fighter. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/31 "2023-02-15T08:22:50Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > As to a squirrel shredding a human, yeah right. Animals in the couple pounds range and sufficiently cornered can be readily stomped / punched / squeezed to death by a naked guy with determination. Unless they’re riding a motorcycle. Then all bets are off. [https://lifeisaroad.com/stories/2004/10/29/neighborhoodHazardorWhyTheCopsWontPatrolBriceStreet.html](https://lifeisaroad.com/stories/2004/10/29/neighborhoodHazardorWhyTheCopsWontPatrolBriceStreet.html) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/32 "2023-02-15T08:46:04Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’ve been suspicious of “persistence hunting”. A deer can reach a top speed of almost 40 miles an hour. So after 15 minutes of sprinting, it’s like 10 miles away. Even if I were an elite marathon runner, it would take me like an hour to cover that distance. You mean to tell me that deer won’t be rested after an hour and ready to sprint another 5-10 miles (assuming I can eve find it)? Probably through terrain that’s a lot easier for a deer than a human? And I’m going to have to do this for 20, 30 miles? It’s my (limited) understanding that the deer isn’t going to spring for a solid 15 minutes. They don’t run further than they perceive a need to run. They run until they think they’ve evaded you, which is just a few minutes. You don’t run (or at least don’t more than jog) after the deer, you _track_ it, and it doesn’t take you an hour to do that because the deer wasn’t running full tilt for long. You and the deer go through repeated cycles of this, preferably in the hottest part of the day which impairs the deer’s recovery, until it drops from either stress or heat stroke or both, at which point you kill it. And yes, you have to do that for miles. Then you get to field dress and carry the carcass back to the women and children. Hunting is hard work, and that’s why hunter-gatherers tend to be pretty fit. > [@RickJay](#): > > Without any sort of tool it would be extremely difficult to catch a squirrel or a mouse or a small monkey. They’re evolved to avoid letting you get close, and humans are not evolved to engage in ambush hunting the way a cat is. That’s why in many instances humans hunt in groups, not alone. We are in some ways pack animals, not lone hunters (they’re we’re capable of solo hunting). > [@RickJay](#): > > The animals too large to hide that easily would be easy to catch but very difficult to kill without a tool. Yes. And there are no human societies without tools. > [@snowthx](#): > > Chimps are known to eat meat occasionally, yes? What are they killing and how do they manage it? I think they tend to hunt smaller monkeys, and often in groups. Sort of taking turns keeping the animal running until its exhausted and they can grab it. Or one chimp drives and animal into a hidden, waiting group of chimps. There are about two dozen known instances of chimps using sticks to either beat and animal or poking them into holes to drive an animal into the open. At least one instance of said stick actually impaling prey. Because chimpanzees are also tool users, even if not to the extent we are. Can a small prey animal potentially mess up a human attempting to hunt it? Sure. Just like humans have on occasion been known to “mess up” or even kill larger predators hunting them, like a bear. One of the risks of hunting is that sometimes the prey fights back. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/33 "2023-02-15T09:07:30Z")
I have an important question for the OP: In this scenario, do I know Kung Fu? ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/34 "2023-02-15T11:21:40Z")
I don’t know about Kung Fu, but I know Bear Jitsu. I’m confident that I can out wrestle a bear. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/35 "2023-02-15T11:23:19Z")
Just no throwing stars. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/36 "2023-02-15T13:19:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’ve been suspicious of “persistence hunting”. A deer can reach a top speed of almost 40 miles an hour. So after 15 minutes of sprinting, it’s like 10 miles away. That’s basically the first half of the paradox of persistence hunting - that deer almost fly through the woodland, leaving sight in about two seconds flat. How the hell could a person on foot and without projectile weapons catch one? Even several indigenous California groups practised persistence hunting, on precisely whitetail / blacktail / mule deer. (One doesn’t need to go the Kalahari to find examples). Taking a deer by running took a whole day or two. It also took a hot day, plus a fit hunter and a heavy-set deer individual. You go after a deer, and it flees, vanishing into the terrain. An expert tracker, like any Native American worth his salt, would find the deer after it stopped running, make it run again, and again, and again. Once the deer has determined you are after it and persistent, you don’t even need to get close. Over time, ie. 6 - 12+ hours, the deer simply cannot run anymore, while the fit human keeps going. Eventually, you can walk up to the completely exhausted deer and kill it with any means available, including a kick to the head. Human wins. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/37 "2023-02-15T13:56:18Z")
I think I may be able to defeat a gopher in hand to paw combat, if he’s old, toothless, and has one paw tied behind his back. But, when I look at animals like cats leaping high in the air or birds of prey dive-bombing a meal, I feel like we humans are like Don Knotts in a room full of Schwarzeneggers. We may have a slight edge in the brains department, but wild animals have the physiques, and they know how to use them. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/38 "2023-02-15T14:53:31Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > I’ve been suspicious of “persistence hunting”. A deer can reach a top speed of almost 40 miles an hour. So after 15 minutes of sprinting, it’s like 10 miles away. > > That’s basically the first half of the paradox of persistence hunting - that deer almost fly through the woodland, leaving sight in about two seconds flat. How the hell could a person on foot and without projectile weapons catch one? > > Even several indigenous California groups practised persistence hunting, on precisely whitetail / blacktail / mule deer. (One doesn’t need to go the Kalahari to find examples). > > Taking a deer by running took a whole day or two. It also took a hot day, plus a fit hunter and a heavy-set deer individual. You go after a deer, and it flees, vanishing into the terrain. An expert tracker, like any Native American worth his salt, would find the deer after it stopped running, make it run again, and again, and again. Once the deer has determined you are after it and persistent, you don’t even need to get close. > > Over time, ie. 6 - 12+ hours, the deer simply cannot run anymore, while the fit human keeps going. Eventually, you can walk up to the completely exhausted deer and kill it with any means available, including a kick to the head. Human wins. Kick to the head? I’m kind of exhausted too (after all that walking).I suspect that without any tools it would almost impossible to dispatch the weary deer and at some point it recovers and wanders off after I’ve given up in frustration and left to find some grubs to nosh on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/39 "2023-02-15T14:55:28Z")
Grab a rock. Make it easy, just like our ancestors would have. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784/40 "2023-02-15T15:02:41Z")
Of course I could grab a rock. Or even better, buy a rifle. But for my thought exercise\* I lack common tool-using sense. \*I have a notion that homo sapiens are rather worthless with their tools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-versus-other-mammals/979784.md?page=3)