# Us vs. Them, In Our Churches **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043 "2004-08-09T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/1 "2004-08-09T16:35:41Z")
Apropos [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/09/politics/campaign/09church.html?hp) article. (Note, free registration needed.) The article is basically about how some churches are gung-ho about supporting Bush, mainly because of his claim as a born-again Christian and getting photo ops of him and his cabinet supposedly “bowing their heads in prayer.” Much of this article leaves me shaking my head, bemoaning the dearth of Christianity that actually follows the teachings of Christ. Several quotes left me almost (but not quite) speechless: > [@](#): > > …said Kerry K. Messer, a Southern Baptist layperson and founder of the socially conservative Missouri Family Network. "I see it more as a grass-roots movement. People are starting to say, we have got this figured out. These are the bad guys, we are the good guys, why is it that we can’t talk about this at our local church?’’ Gotta love hard-core dualistic thinking. Who are the bad guys? Terrorists? Hussein supporters? Nope. Democrats. People who show an ounce of critical thinking re: the Bush administration. That’s just swell. Nevermind that many of these “bad guys” _are also Christians_. > [@](#): > > The Rev. John J. Ghio included a prayer for “reverence for all human life from conception” in the service. I guess this doesn’t apply to Iraqi citizens. One wonders whether it applies to anyone labeled “a bad guy.” > [@](#): > > The Rev. Gerald Davidson of the 5,000-member First Baptist Church of Arnold, Mo., put it like this: “I say, Don’t let your labor union, don’t let the teachers groups and all the other different groups tell you how to vote - you vote the way the way the word of God tells you to vote.” This one for me is the biggest :rolleyes: of all. Oh, sure, the Bible is real specific about euthanasia, abortion, and stem-cell research. I can’t tell it has a real problem with euthanasia, in that people can be executed for what are, in modern thinking, pretty trivial infractions of the Law. People were offed in the New Testament for not giving quite as much to the church as they said they did. Is killing people who don’t benefit society as much as they should really all that wrong, according to the Bible (I ask facetiously)? Anyway, I won’t belabor this point, except to wonder why people who call themselves Christian don’t take more seriously Christ’s frequent admonitions to care for the poor, sick, and needy. Did he say, “give all you have to the poor” or “give all you have to the Bush campaign so we can give the rich more tax cuts and stop stem-cell research?” For a final thought, I was wondering whether there’s any precendent in history for a fundamental religious-based government–whether Christian or otherwise–being anything other than a totalitarian nightmare? And for a final pit: the title of the article is “Churches See an Election Role and Spread the Word on Bush.” _The_ word? How about, _their_ word? Liberal media my ass. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/2 "2004-08-09T20:32:04Z")
I hear ya. Online, I have found Democrats are equal to Communists, only Republicans have a conscience, and voting for Bush is voting for God. In real life, its not much better. Democrats are way to the left. That I don’t get; haven’t the democrats moved to the right in recent years?? I don’t think its exctly the fact Bush claims he is Christian. I think it is truly the abortion issue. Theres a neat link I will have to get later which explains why Christians shouldn’t vote for Bush. What IS the precentage of Christians in America? registered to vote, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/3 "2004-08-09T22:58:06Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > What IS the precentage of Christians in America? From a [related item](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040809.wxusreligion0809/BNStory/Front/) from today’s _Globe & Mail_: > [@](#): > > [Luis Lugo, director of the Washington-based Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life] said the key electoral constituencies of both the Republican and Democratic parties are now the two most highly religious segments of the U.S. public – black Americans on the Democratic side and white evangelical Protestants on the Republican side, together representing more than a quarter of the electorate. […] > > When the religious mix is adjusted to include conservative, observant Catholics, who are divided between the two parties, the total reaches about 40 per cent of the electorate, he said. Of course, Mr. Lugo might be pulling those numbers out of his ass. I dunno. A couple of other general statements that nearly made me aspirate my coffee this morning: > [@](#): > > Three-quarters of Americans think there’s nothing wrong with President George W. Bush saying he relies on his religious beliefs to make decisions. Half of Americans say they would not vote for an atheist. Nearly 60 per cent believe journalists should question politicians about how their religious beliefs might affect their decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/4 "2004-08-10T11:20:16Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Anyway, I won’t belabor this point, except to wonder why people who call themselves Christian don’t take more seriously Christ’s frequent admonitions to care for the poor, sick, and needy. Did he say, “give all you have to the poor” or “give all you have to the Bush campaign so we can give the rich more tax cuts and stop stem-cell research?” Ah, but you see, following Christ’s admonitions about caring for the poor, sick, needy, widowed, etc. would mean they’d actually have to get up and _do_ something rather than just talk about how immoral other people are for doing other things. It’s easier and cheaper to talk about how immoral the world is rather than try to change it. After all, what do you think I’m doing right now? I’m a staunchly liberal Christian. I’m very aware of how short I fall in doing for others, although I do try. Knowing my own sins and inadequacies, I don’t have the chutzpah to claim I’m better than others. I have noticed that how religious one claims to be doesn’t have much to do with how good a person is, at least not in my book. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/5 "2004-08-10T13:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > you vote the way the way the word of God tells you to vote So where in the Bible does it tell me whom to vote for this November? Hmm, I seem to remember something in Exodus about burning Bush… ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/6 "2004-08-10T13:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The Rev. Gerald Davidson of the 5,000-member First Baptist Church of Arnold, Mo., put it like this: “I say, Don’t let your labor union, don’t let the teachers groups and all the other different groups tell you how to vote - you vote the way the way the word of God tells you to vote.” That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/7 "2004-08-10T16:08:47Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The article is basically about how some churches are gung-ho about supporting Bush, mainly because of his claim as a born-again Christian and getting photo ops of him and his cabinet supposedly “bowing their heads in prayer.” Born-again Christian? Did I miss the memo - I thought reincarnation was something foreign to christian beliefs and that the only born-again christian is Jesus Christ. As far as I can tell, George Bush is not Jesus Christ though, so what’s the deal? ---
**Author:** ![Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/8 "2004-08-10T16:18:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **vanilla** > _Theres a neat link I will have to get later which explains why Christians shouldn’t vote for Bush._ Oh, please do post it when you find it! I am looking forward to it very much! ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/9 "2004-08-10T17:19:39Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > Born-again Christian? Did I miss the memo - I thought reincarnation was something foreign to christian beliefs and that the only born-again christian is Jesus Christ. As far as I can tell, George Bush is not Jesus Christ though, so what’s the deal? You’re kidding, right? You’ve never heard the phrase “born again”? John 3:1-7 (1) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: (2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. (3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, **Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God**. (4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be **born again**. Bolding mine. Coincidentally, there was an article put out recently that those who attend church more regularly (at least once a week) are more likely to vote Republican, and those who infrequently or never attend church are more likely to vote Democrat. I find that interesting. Psycho Pirate (a Christian who is looking forward to voting for Bush) ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/10 "2004-08-10T17:41:03Z")
[highjack] **Psycho Pirate** , let me guess, the reason why you are voting for bush is…drum roll…abortion! Fucking one issue voters. I hate em! Did I mention they stink? The world could fucking burn down around their ears and they still wouldn’t see it. Of course, if I am wrong, just ignore me. 😉 [/highjack] ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/11 "2004-08-10T18:02:49Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Coincidentally, there was an article put out recently that those who attend church more regularly (at least once a week) are more likely to vote Republican, and those who infrequently or never attend church are more likely to vote Democrat. I find that interesting. Yes, interesting because we all know what thriving institutions of free and independent thinking the Churches in America are. Let me guess, you probably think you’re doing God’s work by voting for Bush, don’t you? Are you going to feel the rush of Holy Spirit after you check Bush’s name in the ballot box? Can’t you see that politics have hijacked your religion? ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/12 "2004-08-10T18:03:23Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > You’re kidding, right? You’ve never heard the phrase “born again”? Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t kidding and was actually thinking along the lines of reincarnation, but your explanation makes more sense. I haven’t found the quiet time to read the bible yet, although it’s been on my agenda for almost 2 decades now. Eventually I will get around to doing so, I promise 😉 > [@MrTuffPaws](#): > > Fucking one issue voters. I hate em! Did I mention they stink? There’s nothing wrong with being a one issue voter. The iraq issue alone would be enough already not to vote for Bush, imho 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/13 "2004-08-10T19:55:33Z")
Don’t churches lose their tax-exempt status if they endorse a political candidate? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/14 "2004-08-10T20:00:11Z")
**Slacker,** yes they do. If anyone actually hears an unequivocal endorsement they should report it to the IRS. However, they know this and generally skate close to the edge without going over. If you noticed the quote in the OP you’ll see that you know who they are talking about, but they don’t really come out and say it. I think it’s slimy. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/15 "2004-08-10T20:03:19Z")
[http://quicktothepoint.org/politics.htm](http://quicktothepoint.org/politics.htm) Enjoy ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/16 "2004-08-10T20:13:28Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > [http://quicktothepoint.org/politics.htm](http://quicktothepoint.org/politics.htm) > > Enjoy Ouch, my brain hurts. Don’t ever do that again! ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-vs-them-in-our-churches/259043/17 "2004-08-10T20:30:55Z")
> [@Brandus](#): > > Yes, interesting because we all know what thriving institutions of free and independent thinking the Churches in America are. Let me guess, you probably think you’re doing God’s work by voting for Bush, don’t you? Are you going to feel the rush of Holy Spirit after you check Bush’s name in the ballot box? > > Can’t you see that politics have hijacked your religion? While many who vote for Bush do consider themselves churchgoing theists, not everyone who votes for Bush is doing so out of religious conviction. It may well be a coincidence that **Psycho Pirate** is voting for Bush and is Christian; perhaps this person likes Bush’s economic ideas, or military ideas. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Optihut_ > **Did I miss the memo - I thought reincarnation was something foreign to christian beliefs and that the only born-again christian is Jesus Christ.** (probably slightly aside) Actually, that’s an interesting question – would Jesus Christ have been born again? My personal inclination is that being sinless, there would be no need. However, Jesus was baptized, and some Christian groups link baptism with salvation.