# US warplanes defy Chinese air defence rules with B-52 flyover of disputed area **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 26, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855 "2013-11-26T20:16:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/61 "2013-11-30T07:57:04Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > \ > Good idea. Then you might be able to get some jobs in the US. Win for the US. > Nixon has a lot to answer for. So how many Americans would actually want to work in making cheap plastic crap? There’s a reason why those jobs usually end up overseas. > [@Doggo](#): > > So why don’t you pay it off? Perhaps it’s because the US is broke! Maybe because you don’t have to pay it back immediately? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/62 "2013-11-30T10:06:05Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So how many Americans would actually want to work in making cheap plastic crap? There’s a reason why those jobs usually end up overseas. Perhaps those who were in the injection molding biz that got laid off when the owners moved the factories overseas? Perhaps people without jobs who could get hired and trained in working that type of manufacture line? Perhaps those who are machine maintenance people who got laid off when the factories closed? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/63 "2013-11-30T14:21:04Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > So why don’t you pay it off? Perhaps it’s because the US is broke! Nope, not by a long shot. Again, gross ignorance talking. While it’s difficult to estimate China’s debt, since China has forced most of it on local governments (imagine if our debt was from states and counties and not the US as a whole), the estimates range from 46% to 78% of GDP. Compare this to the US debt estimated as 73% of GDP in September of this year. This is lower than Japan and almost all of Europe. It is only the vast size of our economy that makes the numbers so frightening. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/64 "2013-11-30T19:32:40Z")
The Chinese are testing Obama. they sense weakness, and want to see how their actions are responded to. It brings into focus the terms “leading from behind”.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/65 "2013-11-30T19:38:15Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The Chinese are testing Obama. they sense weakness, and want to see how their actions are responded to. > It brings into focus the terms “leading from behind”.😃 And your evidence for the Chinese doing this because Obama is “weak” comes from…? Of course being a patriotic citizen, I suppose you get the jollies whenever the US gets embroiled in a foreign policy crisis as long as Obama is at the helm and thus can be blamed. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/66 "2013-12-01T04:56:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Except that Okinawa actually wanted to remain part of Japan and the Chinese never claimed the Senkaku until the gas and oil reserves were found (and hasn’t ever claimed Okinawa to my knowledge). Do you also support kicking out all the ethnic Germans east of the Oder-Neisse Line and in places like the Sudetenland after World War II? > > Also would you be saying the same thing if Mitt Romney had been elected President last November and was pursuing the exact same response to Chinese aggression? Or rather would you be beating the war drums, denouncing the Red Chinese menace? How anyone with your name could support Japan over China is beyond me. Have you forgotten Shanghai and Hong Kong, never mind Unit 731? The US should have permanently annexed Okinawa after the unconditional surrender of Japan. It would have saved them the present difficulty of trying to keep their bases there. Up to me Gemany would have ceased to exist as a country post WW2. Two times was enough. \ In this case I’m supporting China. As for China taking all the US jobs and giving them a big debt in return, the US people get what they deserve for allowing it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/67 "2013-12-01T05:00:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And your evidence for the Chinese doing this because Obama is “weak” comes from…? > > Of course being a patriotic citizen, I suppose you get the jollies whenever the US gets embroiled in a foreign policy crisis as long as Obama is at the helm and thus can be blamed. The US under Obama is perceived as being weak because he did nothing during or after Benghazi, was a pushover on Syria and has just bent over and begged to be shafted by Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/68 "2013-12-01T05:06:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So how many Americans would actually want to work in making cheap plastic crap? There’s a reason why those jobs usually end up overseas. I gather there are a lot of Americans on welfare because of there not being any jobs. Wouldn’t it be better for Americans to be making cheap plastic crap and not on the dole, and not be adding to the overseas debt by importing said cheap crap? It’s like there isn’t a 17 trillion ( and rising ) $ debt reading some people’s responses. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/69 "2013-12-01T09:58:09Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > How anyone with your name could support Japan over China is beyond me. Have you forgotten Shanghai and Hong Kong, never mind Unit 731? Again. It’s 2013. WWII ended in 1945. The actions of any country in WWII have no bearing on how they should be treated now. The politicians and generals who led the countries are all dead. The people who put them into power are mostly gone. The people who actually fought in the war are mostly gone. Holding a country responsible after such a great gulf of time is ludicrous. The US should have permanently annexed Okinawa after the unconditional surrender of Japan. It would have saved them the present difficulty of trying to keep their bases there. Up to me Gemany would have ceased to exist as a country post WW2. Two times was enough. [/quote] Yeah, and if we’d done that, we wouldn’t have gone seventy years without a major war in Europe, and Japan would still hate our guts, instead of being one of our most valued trade partners. The one thing most of us (you, apparently, excepted) is that nations that hold grudges get into more wars. > [@](#): > > \ > In this case I’m supporting China. > As for China taking all the US jobs and giving them a big debt in return, the US people get what they deserve for allowing it to happen. The US remains the single largest manufacturer in the world. The current economic downturn isn’t because “China took our jobs,” and taking them back isn’t going to fix things. > [@](#): > > The US under Obama is perceived as being weak because he did nothing during or after Benghazi, was a pushover on Syria and has just bent over and begged to be shafted by Iran. He asked for evidence, not for you to restate your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/70 "2013-12-01T10:21:11Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > How anyone with your name could support Japan over China is beyond me. Have you forgotten Shanghai and Hong Kong, never mind Unit 731? pssst . . . that’s not his real name > [@](#): > > In this case I’m supporting China. _China_, you say? Or do you mean the illegitimate mainland bandit regime? 中華民國萬歲!!! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/71 "2013-12-01T10:29:34Z")
Given the actions of the historical Qin Shi Huangdi, I’m surprised **Doggo** is willing to give the Chinese anything at all. I mean, sure, it’s been about 2,200 years since he slaughtered his way to the throne of China, but you can’t just let things like that slide! ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/72 "2013-12-01T13:25:33Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Unfortunately, the Chinese leadership has boxed itself into a corner. They make grandiose and inflamatory territorial claims on one hand, and on the other, state that they will never surrender an inch of “Chinese” territory. “_The Chinese expand like a forest, very slowly. But once they get there, they never leave._” I feel I’ll be quoting this a lot in the coming years. > [@deltasigma](#): > > What would China’s energy demands look like if the population of China had the same standard of living as the US or Western Europe? Because I think that’s really the issue and what they’re trying to plan for. > > What I keep hearing from economists is that China can’t sustain itself as an export economy. It eventually has to transition to a consumer economy much like those of Western countries where about 60-70% of GDP comes from consumer spending. That means a big middle class and a much higher standard of living. > > But you’re talking a couple billion people, so where is the energy for that sort of lifestyle going to come from? If your a central planner, you have to be worried about that. Hence the ‘creep’. > [@Doggo](#): > > As for China taking all the US jobs and giving them a big debt in return, the US people get what they deserve for allowing it to happen. What are you saying, Morpheus — that the Chinese can _dodge bullets_?! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/73 "2013-12-01T14:13:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The US remains the single largest manufacturer in the world. The current economic downturn isn’t because “China took our jobs,” and taking them back isn’t going to fix things. I don’t know how true that first statement is or what criterion is being used for it, but the thing that is always overlooked in the context of offshoring is the fact that corporations have always been allowed to do it with virtual impunity. I firmly believe in efficient allocation of resources, including labor. However that doesn’t mean that you give huge windfalls to businesses just because they are mobile across int’l boundaries and individuals are much less mobile, you know, what with those inconvenient things like kids and families. We should let US firms set up shop wherever they like BUT they should have some responsibility for the retraining and subsequent employment of the workers that are displaced. The US eventually implemented programs that purported to do that but as far as I can tell they are mostly a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/74 "2013-12-01T23:41:11Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > How anyone with your name could support Japan over China is beyond me. Have you forgotten Shanghai and Hong Kong, never mind Unit 731? I’m ethnically Korean, not Chinese (either way I’m an American first) and disputes such as these have to be decided on a case by case basis, by looking at the evidence behind it not based on 60 year old grudges. > [@](#): > > The US should have permanently annexed Okinawa after the unconditional surrender of Japan. It would have saved them the present difficulty of trying to keep their bases there. So much for self-determination. > [@](#): > > Up to me Gemany would have ceased to exist as a country post WW2. Two times was enough. That’s why Angela Merkel is planning for the establishment of the Fourth Reich at this moment… > [@](#): > > \ > In this case I’m supporting China. > As for China taking all the US jobs and giving them a big debt in return, the US people get what they deserve for allowing it to happen. [/QUOTE] > [@Doggo](#): > > The US under Obama is perceived as being weak because he did nothing during or after Benghazi, was a pushover on Syria and has just bent over and begged to be shafted by Iran. Rush Limbaugh is not the most reliable source on foreign policy. After all, I believe we are talking about the President who ramped up the war in Afghanistan, had the SEALs kill Bin Laden, ordered dozens of drone strikes, and participated in an intervention in Libya. > [@Doggo](#): > > I gather there are a lot of Americans on welfare because of there not being any jobs. Wouldn’t it be better for Americans to be making cheap plastic crap and not on the dole, and not be adding to the overseas debt by importing said cheap crap? > It’s like there isn’t a 17 trillion ( and rising ) $ debt reading some people’s responses. No, considering most of them can have far better jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/75 "2013-12-02T04:36:44Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > “_The Chinese expand like a forest, very slowly. But once they get there, they never leave._” . . . Americans (and, come to think of it, Nepalese) are very efficient at cutting down forests. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/76 "2013-12-02T10:31:40Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > The US under Obama is perceived as being weak because he did nothing during or after Benghazi, was a pushover on Syria and has just bent over and begged to be shafted by Iran. From what I’ve seen of the international press, no one outside the US right-wing media thinks there was a scandal in Obama’s handling of Benghazi, they’re generally relieved the US didn’t bomb Syria and prefer the US talking to Iran rather than threatening to invade it on a regular basis as used to happen. What really hit Obama’s international credibility was the Snowden affair and the revelations over eavesdropping on America’s allies. When Obama had to go to China and Russia to demand the return of a guy determined to leak state secrets and make the US look bad - and do so with absolutely no leverage - it pretty much destroyed whatever moral high ground the US had internationally and gave both China and Russia the opportunity to thumb their noses at us. It’s hard to complain about human rights violations in other countries when you’re after someone who revealed that you’d been spying on your own citizenry for years. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/77 "2013-12-02T10:54:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Americans (and, come to think of it, Nepalese) are very efficient at cutting down forests. What Macbeth could have really used on Dunsinane Hill was a platoon of Gurkhas. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/78 "2013-12-02T16:53:08Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And your evidence for the Chinese doing this because Obama is “weak” comes from…? > > Of course being a patriotic citizen, I suppose you get the jollies whenever the US gets embroiled in a foreign policy crisis as long as Obama is at the helm and thus can be blamed. Read my post…I said that Obama is PERCEIVED as weak. the Chinese have drawn their conclusions from a variety of situations: -Benghazi -Egypt -Syria -North Korea -Russia (Obama is regularly insulted by Putin) Of course, you are free to draw your won conclusions.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/79 "2013-12-02T23:19:45Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Regardless of the claims and counter claims, just look at a map. There is no way Japan should have been allowed to claim those islands after WW2 in which they deservedly got their butts kicked big time. Don’t forget that they surrendered unconditionally,\*\* and have no right to be claiming anything that the allies didn’t allow them to have.\*\* Bold mine, but have the right to everything the allies allowed them to have. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855/80 "2013-12-03T00:11:58Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Read my post…I said that Obama is PERCEIVED as weak. the Chinese have drawn their conclusions from a variety of situations: > -Benghazi > -Egypt > -Syria > -North Korea > -Russia (Obama is regularly insulted by Putin) > Of course, you are free to draw your won conclusions.🆒 Domestic affairs as well: don’t forget that when Reagan first came into office, one of the things that made a strong impression on the wary Soviets was his handling of the air traffic controllers’ strike. Obama presents the inverse of that: if he’s utterly perplexed dealing with John Boehner and often with members of his own party, Xi Jinping may believe Obama may be equally weak dealing with him, if not more so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-warplanes-defy-chinese-air-defence-rules-with-b-52-flyover-of-disputed-area/674855.md?page=5)