You completely lost me. So exactly what would you say was the Australian role in contesting the exclusion zone?
Diplomacy.
As stated explicitly in the first quote of post #20.
I guess I didn’t really see how it was ‘masterclass realpolitik’ is all. It seemed like standard operating procedure for this sort of thing, but I’m happy to admit to being oblivious to all sorts of subtleties.
As subtle as a B52 anyway.
Haven’t you ever seen Top Gun? You fly dramatically with lots of beach volleyball and 80s music.
If you want to see the same sort of hijinks on a much smaller scale, follow the ongoing fun and games between Spain and Gibraltar (owned by the UK but coveted by Spain). Lots of “I’m putting my toe over the line!” stuff from the Spanish, things that are diplomatic irritations but stop (just) short of casus belli, like taking potshots at British jetskiers “straying into Spanish waters” or the Spanish sending a survey ship to cruise around and through Gibraltarian waters and refusing to leave.
Looks like the Japanese and South Koreans want in on the fun.
I wouldn’t know realpolitik if it bit off most of my ass, sauteed it in butter and wine, sliced it up and then served it to me for diner. That’s sort of why I was asking, not because I thought there was anything subtle about the B52’s. Please don’t try to label me some jingoist American. Thanks.
But in the light of the actions noted in the following quote, maybe that actually was a brilliant stroke of realpolitik, who knows.
I guess the B52’s opened pandora’s box and when it’s all over, China will be lucky to find any hope.
Unfortunately, the Chinese leadership has boxed itself into a corner. They make grandiose and inflamatory territorial claims on one hand, and on the other, state that they will never surrender an inch of “Chinese” territory. Now, a normal government, or even a non-normal government in a different culture, would see the second part as only a means to an end - that being getting maximum value out of any negotiations where ceding that territory is necessary. Unfortunately, I don’t see that out of the Chinese. This is mere foreshadowing of the kind of International Bully they’re going to be when they reach superpower status.
Now of course, you can claim that America is and has been a bigger bully. However, America’s actions are not and haven’t been about claiming territory from all neighboring states. I’m feeling like China is going to be the next (and hopefully final) big spasm in the history of Empire Building.
My impression is that they’re less concerned with territory and more with resources (which don’t necessarily go hand in glove with one another) and this mapin one of the links in your previous posts seems to indicate that there are natural gas reserves in the area.
Same thing with the Spratlys. I don’t think anyone really gives shit about them except for the oil and nat gas that everyone knows is under them. I think the NYT article said >50B barrels of crude and I forget how much nat gas.
Maybe they were doing barrel-rolls, loop-the-loop and playing chicken with each other?
If nothing else it would entertain the Chinese radar operators.
The resources (including fish) may be the reason, but they have always phrased such things in terms of ‘territory’, for example, claiming that the entire South China Sea has “always belonged to China”. :rolleyes:
They are now saying they will overfly the area with warplanes. Given the size of the area, Good Luck With That. If I was running US Policy, I’d decide to send through another couple of ‘radar whale’ B-52’s again, and have them shadowed by a couple of F-22’s. Just to test Chinese capabilities and intentions.
Regardless of the claims and counter claims, just look at a map. There is no way Japan should have been allowed to claim those islands after WW2 in which they deservedly got their butts kicked big time. Don’t forget that they surrendered unconditionally, and have no right to be claiming anything that the allies didn’t allow them to have.
Even if the islands were actually close to Japan, after the attrocities they carried out against China, they should have lost them anyway.
The only mystery to me is why the US actually supports the Japanese claim against China, given that China owns the US with the huge debt the US owes China.
Could it be, shock horror, that Obama is indulging in a classic piece of diversion, now that Obamacare is going down the tubes, hoping that if US citizens are worried about a war with China, they won’t be shouting the Dems down over Obamacare and all the other problems Obama has, like Benghazi, the IRS and Fast and Furious etc etc etc?
Don’t keep your distance, and look like you’re not keeping your distance.
You may have missed this, but WWII ended almost seventy years ago.
I’m curious about exactly what sort of leverage you think that gives China over us. Let’s try a little Mad Libs. I’ll provide a scenario with a blank in it, and you tell me what should go in the blank.
China: Americans! Because you opposed our claims to these islands, we are calling in all the debt you owe us! You must pay us immediately!
US: No.
China: ________________________________________________
What does China put in that blank?
There’s a couple problems with your theory. The first is that Obama doesn’t need to worry about distracting attention from Benghazi, the IRS, or Fast and Furious, because no one, outside of hard-right partisans, thinks these reflect in anyway on the President. The second is that no one, anywhere on Earth, genuinely thinks that there’s a chance that the US and China are about to start a shooting war. If Obama wanted a distraction from the ACA rollout (which is, despite the constant drum beat of manufactured scandals from the right, the first thing to seriously damage his popularity) he’d have better luck staging a Martian invasion, than convincing people that we’re about to start launching cruise missiles at the Chinese.
What? Japan controlled the islands before the war. The islands were given BACK to Japan. Are you saying the islands should have been given to China as spoils? Maybe China would like to take bits of Okinawa?
Nope, it’s the Gibraltarians who put their toe over the line first, at least for this year’s round of summer games. And Spain doesn’t really covet Gibraltar so much as use it as an ongoing joke and occasional excuse to fill up newspapers on slow-news periods (most people don’t give a shit and half our politicians have their offshore accounts there; even if Gibraltar didn’t have the rest of Her British Majesty’s Armed Forces, it wouldn’t be worth it).
Sure, but you would say that. 
If it’s just a game and they don’t want it, the Spanish government are spending a lot of time and money and pissing off the the British for no good reason.
What would China’s energy demands look like if the population of China had the same standard of living as the US or Western Europe? Because I think that’s really the issue and what they’re trying to plan for.
What I keep hearing from economists is that China can’t sustain itself as an export economy. It eventually has to transition to a consumer economy much like those of Western countries where about 60-70% of GDP comes from consumer spending. That means a big middle class and a much higher standard of living.
But you’re talking a couple billion people, so where is the energy for that sort of lifestyle going to come from? If your a central planner, you have to be worried about that.
Yeah, well… The last time that happened, it was Japan that needed natural resources, and look, South East Asia is full of those natural resources, ripe for the taking…
Maybe the last 50 years of peace were an anomaly…