# U's woo Jews for elevation. Is this not discrimination?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 18, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738 "2002-05-18T21:01:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/1 "2002-05-18T21:01:54Z")
Is Vanderbiilt’s seeking out of Jewish students a good way to improve the university, or is it inappropriate and discriminatory?
> [@](#):
>
> **Colleges woo Jews to boost school rank
> May 3, 2002**
> At the Union of American Hebrew Congregations convention in Boston last December, Rabbi David Davis was selling something generally not associated with Judaism: Vanderbilt University. Davis was spreading the message that the Nashville, Tenn., institution–the only university at the conference–was looking for Jewish students. Competition for top Jewish students is prompting a flurry of new Jewish cultural centers and Judaic studies programs at universities nationwide. But at Vanderbilt and a few other schools, including some officially Christian campuses, there has been an unabashed wooing of the Jewish community. The quest for more Jews–about which Vanderbilt is forthright–is about raising academic standing. It’s part of an ‘‘elite strategy’’ to lift Vanderbilt to Ivy League status, officials said.
[http://www.suntimes.com/output/religion/cst-nws-rel03.html](http://www.suntimes.com/output/religion/cst-nws-rel03.html)
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/2 "2002-05-18T21:13:59Z")
First impression is that it is just bizzare. Jewish isn’t usually a minority status for the purpose of college enrollment.
A second thought may be that many colleges want diverse populations. Colleges with minimal Jewish representation may see attracting Jewish candidates as part of having a desired diverse student body.
If it is, as implied, a play to the stereotype of “smart Jews”, then it is just inappropriate. Once you accept one stereotype be willing to accept them all.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/3 "2002-05-18T21:14:29Z")
Sounds like marketing, to me.
If a known segment of the population has a history and tradition of supporting education and advanced learning that has resulted in a general tendency to excel in the educational establishment (or educational industry), then providing lures to those individuals so that their presence will enhance one’s standing in that industry seems like a good marketing ploy.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/4 "2002-05-18T22:35:15Z")
So, december, can you just once start one of these threads by giving your own opinion on the subjects you bring up, along with the article you link to?
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/5 "2002-05-18T23:51:46Z")
I think it’s kind of cool.
But I wonder if people who have problems with AA will also have a problem with this.
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### Author:  [@Barking\_Spider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Spider)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/6 "2002-05-18T23:57:18Z")
It’s not discrimination unless they are actually discriminating for recruitment of Jews, at the expense of non-jews.
This just seems like an outreach program.
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### Author:  [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/7 "2002-05-19T00:26:23Z")
I’m a Jew who went through the college admissions process this year.
My credentials: I got into 3 schools, one of them being Brandeis, which has an enormous Jewish population, probably the highest of any school outside NYC, and two other schools (American and Macalester) which have average or slightly lower-than-average Jewish populations. I was waitlisted at GW without decision (I took myself off it) and it has a larger than normal Jewish population. I was waitlisted and rejected from UMich and Pomona, which I didn’t look into very hard and therefore don’t know the Jewish populations of, though I’d presume they’re about average. Finally, Georgetown rejected me. They’re an interesting case as they have quotas from various Catholic high schools, so that leaves few spots to pubbies like myself. They have a lower than normal Jewish population I believe. (For those interested I’m going to American)
Because I did well on the PSATs, Vanderbilt sent me a bright information packet, but I got nothing because I was Jewish. Many schools send letters from students there to prospectives from the same region, but only one school (Rhodes) sent me something saying that Jews are not discriminated against and the such. Other competitive schools in the South, such as Davidson, Tulane and Wake Forest didn’t send me anything.
So what do my experiences lead me to believe regarding the OP? Well, if it is just an outreach program then I’m all for it. Informing people about your school in general is a good thing, and if you’re going to tell Jewish people “We’re not anti-Semites, that was 40 years ago, and we want talented people like yourself here” it’s a good thing for everyone. They don’t market to Christians because they don’t think they’ll be discriminated against down there.
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### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/8 "2002-05-19T14:25:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \*
> \*\*So, december, can you just once start one of these threads by giving your own opinion on the subjects you bring up, along with the article you link to? \*\*
1. Many of these threads have included my opinion in the OP.
2. What is the status of your request to include my opinion in the OP. Is it a rule? A case of good manners on this board? Personal preference?
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### Author:  [@Chris\_Luongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chris_Luongo)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/9 "2002-05-19T14:57:41Z")
That absolutely sounds like discrimination to me, and here’s why.
Let’s say that Best Buy, or Circuit City or whatever, runs an ad in the newspaper, encouraging Jews to come on down and purchase a TV set. If the ad campaign is successful, no one else gets hurt. A representative of Best Buy might say something like this:
“Just becuase a lot of Jews have been buying TV sets here lately, we’ve never turned anyone else away. We have a truckload of TV sets in stock, and if we run out, we know where to get more. We’ve got so many TVs that, even with all the Jews coming in here, we’ve never had to turn away a black, white, Hispanic, or Asian TV customer. If it gets really busy, we can even hire more cashiers and open more cash registers, or if need be, we’ll even open up another Best Buy across town to meet the demand.”
Now, my main problem with the idea of college is that you have to _apply_ just to be a _customer_! I certainly don’t have to show up at Best Buy with a pair of knee pads and a tub of Vaseline just to purchase a TV set. But that’s a rant for another day…my main point is that unlike a retail store, the college can only host a finite number of students, and must turn others away.
Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, the college can only support 100 students. 180 people apply each here, 50 of whom are too stupid to get in anyway. That leaves 130 people to fill 100 slots; the school must find a fair way to reject 30 of those people. I’d imagine they’d simply take the 100 best qualified of that group, but who knows how they do it.
So, if the school starts a new campaign to get Jews to come to the school, the absoutely are discriminating: If five Jews come, it’ll be at the direct expense of those other applicants.
The school should only conduct such a campaign when they increase their capacity to greater than 130, or when they get less than 100 qualified applicants each year.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/10 "2002-05-19T15:40:23Z")
**Chris Luongo** , the better analogy to Best Buy, etc. would be to have them advertise that they carry a very large selection of Jewish or Israeli tapes and CDs. (Bookstores near Jewish neighborhoods always make it a point to maintain an “Jewish Studies” section for the same reason.)
The only thing that Best Buy, Borders, or Vanderbilt are doing is making it known that they have products or services available that interest a particular group. If Vanderbilt opened a sub-department of music that concentrated on Delta Blues (pretty natural for a Nashville school) and advertised it heavily in inner city high schools, would you consider that discriminatory or marketing?
In the case of Vanderbilt, they are going one step further, in that if they attract more Jewish students, they will then advertise that fact (and _if_ the level of the SATs of applicants rises, as they hope, they will also promote that fact). That, however, is simply the extended marketing done by broadcasters and magazine publisher who use their clientele demographics as a means to persuade advertisers (their true source of income) to use their services.
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### Author:  [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/11 "2002-05-19T16:57:23Z")
This is not discrimination, in the sense of religious or ethnic discrimination, as is usually understood when talking about the horrors of discrimination in our society.
I suppose it is discrimination, in the sense of having discriminating taste in fine wines. Vanderbilt is looking for fine students, from any background, because their stated mission is to increase the stature of their program.
To do this, the standard approach begins with raising the sheer numbers of your applicant pool, because that allows you (you’re now Vanderbilt University) to be choosier. You also have a finite amount of dollars to invest in marketing. Your traditional marketing has done a decent job in attracting students, and you can analyze and study your applicant pool to develop a student profile. This profile also tells you what populations your marketing has not been reaching – in this case, Jewish college-bound students. Vanderbilt has now responded by dedicating more dollars to reach that population. I’m sure there are other populations that are also under-represented at Vanderbilt (or any peer institution), and it may be that if this particular campaign, if successful, will be duplicated in the future to reach other groups of students. This is all driven by very real numbers. Vanderbilt knows that their are excellent students out there who are factoring in things like quality of Jewish Studies programs and Jewish student programming when selecting their college.
I’m not sure higher education is exactly like Best Buy, but I’m willing to run with it. If there was a population of people who were buying TVs by the hundreds, yet they weren’t buying them from YOU, wouldn’t you try to aggressively go after them? Half your work is done – you don’t need to convince anyone that TVs are great, or affordable, or high quality. They’re already selling like hotcakes, but your competitors are getting the business instead of you. Maybe all your current customers buy your TVs because they live in the neighborhood, and they have always shopped there. Why spend your advertising budget to focus on people who already buy your TVs? You want to reach people who don’t know about your TVs yet. Thus, an ad campaign is born.
Keep in mind that you don’t have a special stash of sub-par TVs to sell on the cheap to this new population. They get the same selection as everyone else, pay the same prices, get the same level of warrenty. You’re just trying to get them to walk in the door of Best Buy, and you’re counting on the fine quality of your Best Buy products to do the rest.
Diversity of an institution’s student body has become a big factor. The best high school students list diversity as one of the things they are looking for in an institution. Other things on this list include state-of-the-art computer labs, and study abroad opportunities. That’s why so many schools are devoting resources to computer labs and study abroad opportunities. Now, I’m sure that students might also want things like naked jello wrestling, so there are people whose job it is to make certain that the things the students want fit in with the overall academic mission of the school. Whether or not diversity meets the criteria of “a good thing in academia” is probably another debate.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/12 "2002-05-19T18:29:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> So, if the school starts a new campaign to get Jews to come to the school, the absoutely are discriminating: If five Jews come, it’ll be at the direct expense of those other applicants.
In retrospect, I didn’t really address this point, although I alluded to its motivation.
Vanderbilt is already getting its 130 applicants for 100 positions. It has no requirement to increase its current enrollment to 130. By seeking to enlarge its pool of applicants to 135, it continues to accept 100 applicants, but it now has a larger pool from which to select a “higher quality” student. As long as Jewish applicants are held to the same minimum standards as everyone else, the school has simply increased the odds that it will find more students with higher grades. (Note that the increase in the _odds_ is not a guarantee.) If more of the accepted students happen to be Jewish, then the school has expanded its pool of resources for endowments. Schools live for endowments. Most private schools only survive because of their endowments. By adding (or increasing the size of) a new group of students, they increase the pool of alumni from whom they can solicit endowment funds and (in the TV and magazine analogy) they expand the size of the group that they can use to advertise for more funds.
“Dear Charitable Disbursement Officer of the Jewish League for Wayward Students: Did you know that Vanderbilt now has a student population that is xx% Jewish? Would you be interested in supporting their needs on campus with a significant donation to the Jewish Studies Fund?”
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### Author:  [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/13 "2002-05-19T19:50:51Z")
Crap.
When I read the thread title, I was hoping the entire OP would be written in light verse.
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### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/14 "2002-05-20T00:10:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \*
> \*\*Crap.
>
> When I read the thread title, I was hoping the entire OP would be written in light verse. \*\*
This is not discrimination
Jews are good at education.
All they do to accept Jews more
Is to use their SAT score.
**Barking Spider** scoped it out.
This is merely reaching out.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/15 "2002-05-20T00:20:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \*
> \*\*Crap.
>
> When I read the thread title, I was hoping the entire OP would be written in light verse. \*\*
Because you asked…
U’s woo Jews for elevation,
Is this not discrimination?
Or does recruiting at the Hebrew school
do nothing but increase the pool?
Detractors say this is wrong,
there are only so many offers to come along
And more for Jews mean less for goys,
It’s biased against Christian girls and boys.
On the other hand, some say it’s fair,
Many colleges in the past, Jews weren’t accepted there.
And it just gives the colleges more choices
And more diversity, and more different voices.
So, what’s your opinion my friend?
Do these policies have to end?
Or should we keep them as they are?
Your choice…fair? Or go to far?
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### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/16 "2002-05-20T01:53:56Z")
I don’t see any indication that the University is specifically targetting Jews. “[Vanderbilt] was looking for Jewish students”. Is that supposed to be surprising? Presunably most Universities are looking for Jews. And blacks. And Hispanics. And every other ethnicity.
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### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/17 "2002-05-20T02:57:27Z")
Critics of this situation,
Please withhold your indignation.
Toward a rhyming, quaint and curious OP to attract your views
Would you please, each Doper member,
Listen to the geek december,
No-one had their standards lowered in the seeking after Jews.
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### Author:  [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/18 "2002-05-20T03:16:42Z")
I didn’t see anything here about the universities giving any sort of competitive advantage to the Jewish students. This just sounds like a way to attract more applicants who may be qualified and bring diversity to the campus. Why not try to woo as many qualified students as possible?
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### Author:  [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/19 "2002-05-20T03:24:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by brujo \*
> \*\*I didn’t see anything here about the universities giving any sort of competitive advantage to the Jewish students. This just sounds like a way to attract more applicants who may be qualified and bring diversity to the campus. Why not try to woo as many qualified students as possible? \*\*
The problem is that a white Protestant from Chantilly, VA with a 3.8 GPA and 1450 SATs probably doesn’t think he’ll have a problem fitting in as much as a Jew from West Hartford, CT with a 3.8 GPA and 1450 SATs. Vanderbilt is wooing qualified students that don’t think they’d fit in.
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### Author:  [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-woo-jews-for-elevation-is-this-not-discrimination/109738/20 "2002-05-20T15:54:10Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Big Kahuna Burger \*
> My credentials: I got into 3 schools, one of them being Brandeis, which has an enormous Jewish population, probably the highest of any school outside NYC, and two other schools ( **American** and Macalester) which have average or slightly lower-than-average Jewish populations.
Back in the mid-80s, while going to Georgetown, I dated a Jewish American U. girl for a while. She lived in a dorm complex on campus that she told me was nicknamed the Tokyo Towers, 'cause it was populated by JAPs.
(Hey, don’t get mad at me - I’m just reporting what **she** said.)
Sua
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