# USA: being wealthy is ok... intelligent (intelectual) bad ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677 "2004-11-08T17:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/21 "2004-11-08T19:41:53Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > What irks me is that Bush is by no means a good example of the “self made” man that americans supposedly venerate so much. He just looks the part of the common man. I think Kerry didn’t act snobbish… he was made to appear more snobbish and elitist. It seems you are making an incorrect assumption here. Bush is not generally looked up to because he’s rich. Most people realize he got wealthy mainly thru family connections. Kerry got hurt somewhat by comments his wife made that sounded VERY snobbish. She said anyone who didn’t agree with Kerry’s health care plan was stupid (or something very close to that) and her comments about Laura Bush were very condescending-- saying that her own experiences were “bigger” (read better) than the First Lady’s. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/22 "2004-11-08T19:42:37Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > The first part “_Popular culture reflects popular values at least as much as it shapes them_” seems to imply some feedback, but the second part “_I’d see that as a symptom of American anti-intellectualism rather than a cause_” seems to imply a one-way causal relationship. That’s not what I meant to imply. It’s a bit of a tangent, but the point is that I don’t think the examples you cited are themselves causes of anti-intellectualism. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/23 "2004-11-08T19:49:56Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > the point is that I don’t think the examples you cited are themselves causes of anti-intellectualism. I didn’t imply that “The Simpsons” and “Married with Children” caused anti-intellectualism in the U.S. I was just giving some examples indicative of the anti-intellectualism in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/24 "2004-11-08T19:54:44Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Kerry got hurt somewhat by comments his wife made that sounded VERY snobbish. Do you think the election results would have changed one iota had Teresa Kerry never made any public statements? I personally don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/25 "2004-11-08T20:01:46Z")
**xtisme** : > [@](#): > > As to the intellectual elite, what annoys people I suppose is that holier than thou, I know whats best for you, you stupid shlub attitude many of them have. Doesn’t matter how articulate they are if they are insulting you by saying THEY know whats best and you are too stupid to really have much say so toe the line… > > …being long winded and beating people over the head for their supposed ‘ignorance’ is… > > …Maybe because they aren’t as dumb as you think. People see through the thinly veiled insults to their intellegence and the ‘I know better than you how things should be’ better than you (or the intellectual elite on both sides) THINK they do… Who are you talking about? Who is saying these awful things? I don’t remember Kerry saying “We’re better than you” or calling anyone stupid or a shlub. I don’t know of anyone who labels _themself_ as an “elite”. What is being said is, “The world is very complex and there are no simple black-and-white answers”. Is that something that should be backlashed against or taken to heart? I think this is a case of “methinks thou doth protest too much”. “Deep down most people realize” that smarter _is_ better and they immediately resent it, regardless of the lack of overt put-downs coming from intellectuals. One last thing, gun nuts enjoy pointing out that totalitarian regimes tend to outlaw guns, but they also tend to persecute intellectuals because they’re less gullible and less likely to swallow the party line. ---
**Author:** ![Mirasawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mirasawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirasawa)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/26 "2004-11-08T20:06:05Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > I didn’t imply that “The Simpsons” and “Married with Children” caused anti-intellectualism in the U.S. > > I was just giving some examples indicative of the anti-intellectualism in the U.S. I don’t even think they are good examples… Homer Simpson and Al Bundy are laughed at, not identified with. A better example would be The Odd Couple… the slobby guy… I’m too young to know the name of that character. \_ \_ ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/27 "2004-11-08T20:09:37Z")
> [@Mirasawa](#): > > I don’t even think they are good examples… Homer Simpson and Al Bundy are laughed at, not identified with. You forget that Bart Simpson is considered cool (if I’m not mistaken) ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/28 "2004-11-08T20:11:10Z")
> [@Mirasawa](#): > > I don’t even think they are good examples… Homer Simpson and Al Bundy are laughed at, not identified with. A better example would be The Odd Couple… the slobby guy… I’m too young to know the name of that character. > > \_ > \_ Right! So, watch it! when you’re dissing the Simpsons of the non-OJ variety. Us red state folk enjoy _The Simpsons_ — I like the unpretentious red state humor — even Homer’s unintentionally red state wit – and even Moe’s intentional red state selfishness is funny in a red state sort of way – Their unpretentious use of streotypes when depicting mobsters, pizza makers, drunks, and convenience store clerks – all funny. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/29 "2004-11-08T20:18:24Z")
I always thought the Simpsons had a lot of smart sarcasm and irony in it. Homer might be an anti-intelectual symbol… but the program is quite smart IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/30 "2004-11-08T20:39:06Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > I don’t want this to BBQ material… but from the rants and threads about the election… one gets the impression that disgruntled voters who hate intelectuals killed Kerry’s chances… while the corporate party (GOP) gives out tax cuts to the wealthy was ok. > > If people are going to be jealous why not be equal opportunity jealous ? Why not discriminate the smarty pants and the filthy rich too? I’m from a country that too easily criticizes the wealthy and that is bad. Overly smart people are shunned too… but not more than the wealth would. I’m happy americans aren’t into socialist bull. Still what’s with the “I hate intelectuals” ? > > - Is being more intelligent discriminated against in the US ? Wealth not ? > > - Or is it only “intelectuals” that are ? How do you determine the boundary ? > > - Why would a poor and dumb fellow feel more offended by intelligent people than rich people ? There is anti-intellectualism in the US, but its usually along the lines of ‘_they_ have not lived my life and _they_ think they know whats best for me’. There was a campaign commerical against Howard Dean complaining about him being a ‘new england liberal’ or something. Intelligence itself is not discriminated against. Its usually encouraged outside of grade school. Or in college when it fucks up curves. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/31 "2004-11-08T20:41:01Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Who are you talking about? Who is saying these awful things? I don’t remember Kerry saying “We’re better than you” or calling anyone stupid or a shlub. I don’t know of anyone who labels themself as an “elite”. Which part of “I wasn’t talking about Kerry” didn’t you understand? As to the rest of your rant, I’m unsure how it relates to what I said in my own posts. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Yep… the old rule: KISS (keep it simple stupid). I understand when people said Kerry didn’t show where he stood … yet in another thread a Bushite said Kerry didn’t explain what he was going to do… Kerry explained it too much in fact… I wouldn’t go as far as saying “lecturing” like xtisme said… but unfortunately Kerry tried to explain what he was about… The difference is talking TOO people or talking AT them. Kerry talked AT people, and while eloquent he really didn’t have much of substance to say. Bush talked TOO people, and while he also didn’t have much to say of substance either people felt a connection to him…he kept it simple and gave the impression that he was plain spoken and was actually saying something of substance. As to Kerry explaining too much I would tend to disagree with you. Certainly he was verbose…no doubts there. Take his stance on Iraq. I never DID figure out exactly how it differed from Bush’s as far as what he would do once he was president…it sounded to me (and still does) like he would do everything Bush was doing…just better. Thats not a stance. It was the same on other issues. I got the feeling he actually DID know what he would do, but that he didn’t want to say it as it would somehow hurt him (which I think it WOULD have…as I think his programs would have caused taxes to be raised, never a good political position even if its reality). However, to make this short, talking a LOT isn’t equal to SAYING a lot. -XT ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/32 "2004-11-08T20:41:58Z")
I had a friend tell me she thought it was in very poor taste for someone to display a Phi Beta Kappa key on their person. That it was boastful and bragging, and therefore obnoxious. This same person thought nothing of taking her Coach purse with her wherever she went, driving her luxury car. Now, she’s entitled to her opinion on displaying academic honors–indeed, doesn’t it get some snickers when somone insists on signing personal correspondence with an MD or JD or PhD? But it was interesting to me that she didn’t think there was anything wrong with being showy about material successes. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/33 "2004-11-08T20:49:53Z")
I said: > [@MilTan](#): > > Which of course leads to the question: How does this not apply to red-state social conservatives that have way too much advice for me regarding how I should live my life? to which you replied: > [@ultrafilter](#): > > They don’t present themselves as intellectuals. Ok, so I say I know what’s best because I’m smart, and you[sup]1[/sup] say you know what’s best because the Bible told you so. I really don’t get why the former is more elitist than the latter. [sup]1: Not you specifically, but rather Joe Redstate[/sup] [sup]Also, why can’t I get nested quoting to work?[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/34 "2004-11-08T20:51:04Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Let’s not conflate intellectualism and education. It’s entirely possible to be intellectual without even a bachelor’s, and vice versa. I’m not talking about academic credentials. Often times when someone is significantly more intelligent, they can find their peers boring or simple regardless of their education level. It is possible for someone to be “intellectual” without formal education, however, I would suggest that often such intellectualism can take the form of “knowing just enough to be dangerous”. Of course, we haven’t really defined what we mean by intellectual. I know very few people, outside of the world of morons, who do not view going to college or pursuing advanced education to be a positive thing. On the other hand, no one likes having fancy schooling or degrees thrown in their face. In the end, it’s a matter of packaging the message. > [@scr4](#): > > Embedded in that attitude, I think, is the belief that the intellecuals don’t actually know any more than the “common” people. Intellectuals are viewed the same way religious cults are - people who have their own set of beliefs and codes. Even when researchers and academics speak about what they’ve been studying their entire lives, they are often perceived as snobs. It’s quite common to have an attitude that “street” knowledge or “gut instinct” is somehow superior to scientific analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/35 "2004-11-08T21:52:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s quite common to have an attitude that “street” knowledge or “gut instinct” is somehow superior to scientific analysis. Which is an elitist or snobbish attitude, in its own way. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/36 "2004-11-08T21:57:59Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > Ok, so I say I know what’s best because I’m smart, and you[sup]1[/sup] say you know what’s best because the Bible told you so. I really don’t get why the former is more elitist than the latter. That’s something that everyone has to decide for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/37 "2004-11-08T22:01:32Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > Which of course leads to the question: How does this not apply to red-state social conservatives that have way too much advice for me regarding how I should live my life? Typical elitist response. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/38 "2004-11-08T22:12:18Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > That’s something that everyone has to decide for themselves. Exactly. Now take a tour of the majority of the Straightdope posts leading up to the election. The hubris on this board is such that the majority of Bush supporters are labeled as ‘dumb’ or, maybe, have struck some sort of Faustian bargain during the election process – No way Bush gets elected otherwise - ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/39 "2004-11-08T22:14:54Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Because if you’re poor, at least you have the possibility (in theory anyway) of becoming rich one day. > But if you’re dumb, you’re never going to become intelligent. > That’s why there is more reason to be envious of the intelligent people and feel some animosity towards them… This nails it, and it also explains why so many people screwed by the Bush tax cut support it. (Screwed in the sense that a reasonable cut would have given them a lot more money back and helped the economy more.) Forget about politics, think of your average high school. Is there a high school in the country (exept maybe University highs and Bronx High School of Science) where a valedictorian or someone who gets 800s on SATs gets as much recognition as a football player? Do honors student get letter sweaters? Who gets looked down on more - the dumb jock or the elitist smart geek? I was on a committee coming up with selection criteria for a new principal at my kids high school. I suggested improving academics - and most of the others looked at me like I was crazy. And we’re a pretty good school too. I wonder how many people actually think of Bush as rich? He only allows himself to be seen cutting brush. I bet that a poll would grossly underestimate his net worth. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677/40 "2004-11-09T00:44:44Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s not so much a matter of being an intellectual, it’s more a matter of thinking you know better how people should live their lives. [quote] So, be smart, just don’t try to achieve anything with it. > [@](#): > > Good intellectualism: Explaining the details of some complicated system (like how the tax code affects the economy) or process. Or, for instance, how aerosol hairspray creates holes in the protective ozone layer that keeps the giant nuclear reaction in the sky from killing us all. Oh wait, no, that makes you an elitist again. So, be smarter than other people, but only tell them what they want to hear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-being-wealthy-is-ok-intelligent-intelectual-bad/273677.md?page=3)