# USA "Next to Last" in international evolution survey. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863 "2006-08-15T19:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/21 "2006-08-15T23:06:23Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I know this sounds over the top in some ways, but man, when I see things like this, it makes me feel like we are so close to a theocratic totalitarian regime in this nation. I think of books like the Handmaid’s Tale and wonder, exactly how much fear would it take before the fundamentalists could take over? [/QUOTE] Why? Do you think rejection of evolution is at some all-time high in the US? I haven’t seed actual data, but I suspect disbelief in evolutioin has always been very common in the US and yet, somehow, we’ve managed to not become a theocracy. Why do you think that is? The real “fundamentalists” are a small minority in the US. It’s this one topic-- evolution-- that sets a lot of non-fundamentalists off. And not all “fundamentalists” would want a theocracy anyway. Those that do, the Dominionists (or whatever they’re called) are a tiny minority within a minority. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/22 "2006-08-15T23:08:09Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I know this sounds over the top in some ways, but man, when I see things like this, it makes me feel like we are so close to a theocratic totalitarian regime in this nation. I think of books like the Handmaid’s Tale and wonder, exactly how much fear would it take before the fundamentalists could take over? [/QUOTE] Oh fucking please. Give it up. Studies like this might as well be asking, “Uncle Sam, on a scale of one to ten, ten being eleven days ago and one being yesterday, when did you stop beating your wife for sleeping with a monkey?” The “study” is bullshit, and reeks of bias. Hell, before you get all “Handmaid’s Tail” and _oh my god thesky is falling and the United Methodists are going to sell me into baby slavery_ you might want to remember that this decidedly biased “survey” **also** said that those who rejected evolution decreased. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/23 "2006-08-15T23:16:40Z")
I think true Biblical literalists make up a considerably smaller percentage of the US population than the roughly 40% who reported they do not accept the validity of evolutionary theory. Despite this, about 60% of US citizens surveyed either reject evolution or remain unconvinced. Is this a reflection of a disproportionate influence of Christian fundamentalism on the attitudes of the broader Christian community about the accuracy of scientific theories? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/24 "2006-08-15T23:22:32Z")
Last response meant to follow **JM** … ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/25 "2006-08-15T23:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] The graph in the OP only serves to confirm my longstanding high opinion of Iceland. They should be allowed to rule us all. [/QUOTE] Spoken like a Doper who has never heard of bj0rn… ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/26 "2006-08-15T23:28:12Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] The “study” is bullshit, and reeks of bias. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately I can’t link to the study itself in _Science_ , except to provide the [abstract](http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/313/5788/765), and invite any who lack a subscription but are interested enough to check it out in a library or pay to download it. You’ve provided no evidence to back up your accusation of bias. I’m feeling remarkably civil (I think “defeated” is probably more like it) for a pit thread today, but what’s to stop one from calling bullshit right back? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/27 "2006-08-15T23:33:48Z")
Let’s have some fun massaging numbers! [QUOTE=Loopydude] …about 60% of US citizens surveyed either reject evolution or remain unconvinced. [/QUOTE] And 61% either accept evolution as a scientific fact or believe that it might be true! And since only 40% accepted evolution 20 years ago, that’s more than a fifty percent increase. Science is winning! See? You can make those numbers mean anything you want. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/28 "2006-08-15T23:37:39Z")
[QUOTE=ParentalAdvisory] So what about China, the Mideast, and abroad? They’re comparing the US against basically Europe… what is with that? [/quote] They didn’t want to embarass us further? All I know is, on the few occassions that I’ve talked to folks in mainland China about evolution (which isn’t a subject that comes up often), they accept it as a given scientific fact. I’d be surprised to learn of any mainstream Chinese anti-evolution movement, myself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/29 "2006-08-16T00:05:20Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] I think true Biblical literalists make up a considerably smaller percentage of the US population than the roughly 40% who reported they do not accept the validity of evolutionary theory. Despite this, about 60% of US citizens surveyed either reject evolution or remain unconvinced. Is this a reflection of a disproportionate influence of Christian fundamentalism on the attitudes of the broader Christian community about the accuracy of scientific theories? [/QUOTE] It’s just really hard for folks to believe that humans evolved from apes. Heck, it took civilized man 5,000 years to figure it out! I don’t think Americans distrust science in general-- no problems with physics or chemistry. Just evolution, and particularly the part about humans. As far as theocracy goes, though, show me a survey of how many people want stores to be closed on Sunday, by law. If it’s greater than 50%, I’ll think about getting scared. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/30 "2006-08-16T02:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] Let’s have some fun massaging numbers!And 61% either accept evolution as a scientific fact or believe that it might be true! And since only 40% accepted evolution 20 years ago, that’s more than a fifty percent increase. Science is winning! See? You can make those numbers mean anything you want. [/QUOTE] There’s no messaging at all in your statement; it’s simply a misinterpretation. “Believe it might be true” has the same meaning as “unconvinced”, since it necessarily indicates those individuals believe it might _not_ be true as well. In any instance, whether or not there is a trend toward greater acceptance of the validity of evolutionary theory from the past to the present, it does nothing to change the current result, which is that the USA scored next-to-last in this survey. You’ve said nothing to substantively address the purported presence of bias, or indicated why, exactly, these results are “bullshit”. However one wants to express the results in English, the rankings are a simple reflection of numerical values. If it is those values you take issue with, then what’s your reason? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/31 "2006-08-16T02:21:46Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] Oh fucking please. Give it up. Studies like this might as well be asking, “Uncle Sam, on a scale of one to ten, ten being eleven days ago and one being yesterday, when did you stop beating your wife for sleeping with a monkey?” The “study” is bullshit, and reeks of bias. Hell, before you get all “Handmaid’s Tail” and _oh my god thesky is falling and the United Methodists are going to sell me into baby slavery_ you might want to remember that this decidedly biased “survey” **also** said that those who rejected evolution decreased. [/QUOTE] Hey, I never said that my feeling was _rational._ I’m afraid of Christians but I’m also afraid of clowns and those biscuits that come in a tube. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/32 "2006-08-16T02:33:27Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s just really hard for folks to believe that humans evolved from apes. Heck, it took civilized man 5,000 years to figure it out! I don’t think Americans distrust science in general-- no problems with physics or chemistry. Just evolution, and particularly the part about humans. [/QUOTE] To this day, I still struggle to accept this. IMO, the basics of evolution are really quite easy to grasp, and those basics tend to dominate the overall phenomenon, such that the interested citizen can make reasonably informed judgements about a relatively powerful concept with modest effort. Compared to the fundamentals of chemistry and physics, the fundamentals of biology are a cakewalk, if you ask me. People can’t accept humans and chimps had a common ancestor, but Big Bang nucleosynthesis makes perfect sense? Inflationary cosmology is a trifle? The presence or absence of weak-scale supersymmetry to suppress quadratic divergences of the Higgs mass, and the related “naturalness” of the mechanism of electroweak symmetry breaking is no biggie? The very foundations of biology are accessible to anyone with the ability to read and master a little statistics and maybe algebra. I don’t think the same can be even remotely said of the other natural sciences. I find it difficult to explain misguided skepticism about evolution as a function of the _inability_ to comprehend. It becomes much easier, I think, to implicate the _unwillingness_ to comprehend. One then may well ask why are so many people unwilling? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/33 "2006-08-16T02:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] See? You can make those numbers mean anything you want. [/QUOTE] OK, make them mean that 80% of those polled believe that evolution is valid. “The survey was biased” ranks right up there with “your analogy is invalid” in the list of favoured assertions by posters who’ve got nuthin’. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/34 "2006-08-16T07:36:26Z")
OK… how the blazes did Spain get so many people who think evolution is false? Oh wait. “Think” is not the right word. Excuse me, I’ll go look for one that applies. Maybe the figure includes kids below school age, old folks with dementia and illiterate immigrants _scratches her head in confusion_. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/35 "2006-08-16T08:11:50Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] They didn’t want to embarass us further? All I know is, on the few occassions that I’ve talked to folks in mainland China about evolution (which isn’t a subject that comes up often), they accept it as a given scientific fact. I’d be surprised to learn of any mainstream Chinese anti-evolution movement, myself. [/QUOTE] I was asked by one of my colleagues in China if people in my company really believed in God. When I said yes, many of them do, he said: “but not the managers, right”? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/36 "2006-08-16T08:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] OK, make them mean that 80% of those polled believe that evolution is valid. “The survey was biased” ranks right up there with “your analogy is invalid” in the list of favoured assertions by posters who’ve got nuthin’. [/QUOTE] You’re beating up on the wrong person. **A Monkey With A Gun** agrees with you, it’s **Loopy Dude** who you should be dissing. Re-read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/37 "2006-08-16T08:25:55Z")
While I don’t doubt the general implications of the results, this nonsense about “we left out tons and tons of countries” isn’t exactly impressive. What sort of methodology is “Mr. Miller speculated that support for evolution would be much stronger here than in the United States and would likely align with countries like Britain and France.” ??? When a study claims to have found that the US is second to last in something, I general expect that they mean out of ALL countries unless that particular omission is printed in huge bold letters. I also don’t expect “well, we didn’t bother to check because we assumed we knew the answer anyway” is not exactly a great soundbite for science. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/38 "2006-08-16T08:49:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] … As far as theocracy goes, though, show me a survey of how many people want stores to be closed on Sunday, by law. If it’s greater than 50%, I’ll think about getting scared. [/QUOTE] Somewhat tangential: I would not if I were you. Stores _are_ closed here in Germany on Sundays, by law (don’t know if there is a recent survey, but it would have easily more than 50 % in favour), and we are not on the way to being a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/39 "2006-08-16T08:49:04Z")
People who wonder why the religious right is so staunchly against the theory of evolution should read up on the history of eugenics in the United States. The authority of Science was happily ridden into hell by the unchallenged assertions of evolutionary theorists, and state and federal governments marched along in lock step. Find out about the “Lynchburg Colony” and the social engineering carried out by people who claimed that science, and particularly Darwinsm justified it all. Yeah, it’s all a crock. But it was an academically emaculate crock, avidly supported by the pundits of elitism as a science. Now look at the same exact region. Lynchburg VA. Home of religious intolerance of evolution, and pretty much anything to do with medically based ethical standards. They may have reacted beyond reason, but the reaction was to a thing of demonic levels of evil, done by scientists, in the name of science. It’s going to take a brave set of scientists to examine that era, and publicly admit that science has no morals, and can never be given rein without strict conscience, and social oversight. Trying to blame it all on the Christians won’t work. The Christians were the ones fighting the real evil in this one. And it was a long fight. The use of sterilization without meaningful consent continued for decades after the infamous “Colony” was taken over by the state. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/40 "2006-08-16T09:53:54Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] You’re beating up on the wrong person. **A Monkey With A Gun** agrees with you, it’s **Loopy Dude** who you should be dissing. Re-read the thread. [/QUOTE] You sure? Why? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863.md?page=3)