# USA "Next to Last" in international evolution survey. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863 "2006-08-15T19:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/41 "2006-08-16T10:42:12Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] When a study claims to have found that the US is second to last in something, I general expect that they mean out of ALL countries unless that particular omission is printed in huge bold letters. I also don’t expect “well, we didn’t bother to check because we assumed we knew the answer anyway” is not exactly a great soundbite for science. [/QUOTE] For what it’s worth, the summary on [Science](http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/313/5788/765)’s website makes no mention of last place or global ranking, and explicitly compares the US only to Europe and Japan. I can’t access the full text 'til I’m at the office, but I expect that the full text makes no global claim either. It’s always good to check whether a study is actually claiming what crappy web articles say it’s claiming. You usually find either that the journalist has managed to completely misstate the research, or that it isn’t published research at all and that the alleged scientist is trawling for funding. And since this is published in Science, the former is a much better bet. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/42 "2006-08-16T11:39:54Z")
**Tris** , with all due respect, bullshit. [QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Yeah, it’s all a crock. But it was an academically emaculate crock, avidly supported by the pundits of elitism as a science. Now look at the same exact region. Lynchburg VA. Home of religious intolerance of evolution, and pretty much anything to do with medically based ethical standards. They may have reacted beyond reason, but the reaction was to a thing of demonic levels of evil, done by scientists, in the name of science. [/QUOTE] Let me see if I’ve got this straight. Back before the Second World War bad science was applied as dogma and coupled with piss-poor legislation; this resulted in horrific abuses. Now, in school boards in Kansas and elsewhere in the United States, creationist blowhards like the Discovery Institute are…treating bad science as dogma and trying their damnedest to couple it with piss-poor legislation. And we’re supposed to look kindly upon them because some eugenicists did it first? Congratulations, you’ve just applied the “tu quoque” fallacy to social policy. > [@](#): > > Trying to blame it all on the Christians won’t work. The Christians were the ones fighting the real evil in this one. Guess what? Creationists are wrong _now_, as a academic and scientist who had jack-all to do with eugenics in the 1920’s thank you very fucking much I refuse to either absolve them of that error _or_ “publically admit that science has no morals”. Keeping children in ignorance to satisfy a religious dogma is a moral wrong, and the wrongs of the 1920’s don’t make it right. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/43 "2006-08-16T13:43:05Z")
**Orbifold** , Get to know your enemy. Ignorance is your enemy. I am not a supporter of creationists, nor does my suggestion that people learn the history that brought about the phenomenon of the Moral Majority support that group. But learning how it happened can help people now avoid the same sort of intellectual partisanship that brought the Lynchburg Colony into existence. Or, you could just paint the black hat onto whomever you wish. Oh, and thanks for pointing out that creationism is wrong. Who would have guessed? Your thoughtful condescension has added valuable insight to my point of view. I will immediately bring my opinion in line with your instructions. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/44 "2006-08-16T13:49:27Z")
I simply question the relevance of the history of the Lynchburg Colony to this issue. You’re the only Doper I’ve ever seen citing it as a significant contributor to conservative Christian mistrust in “science”. We’ve had our share of creationists on this board, and most just appear to be anti-intellectual trolls who probably couldn’t find Lynchburg on a map, much less hold an informed discussion on its sociological impact. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/45 "2006-08-16T14:26:34Z")
The main reason that Christians in the U.S. reject evolution is because they believe their God/teachings disagree with it. That’s it. The history of eugenics and other abuses of science are as good an argument against science as the Crusades and Inquisition are against religion; i.e. a good illustrative point of what can go wrong, but certainly not a winning point in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/46 "2006-08-16T14:59:57Z")
Does anyone here have any idea how real life acquaintances would respond to the poll question? I don’t. As a matter of fact, with the exception of family, I have absolutely no idea how the overwhelming majority would reply. It’s none of my business what their personal convictions are and has no bearing on them as a person. With the exception of forums like this, it’s not exactly the type of dicussion fodder one hears in social settings. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/47 "2006-08-16T15:12:04Z")
Now, if you want to start roll your eyes at Americans, [this is a great place to start](http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060814005496&newsLang=en) > [@](#): > > …77% of Americans polled were able to identify two dwarfs, while only 24% could name two Supreme Court Justices…60% were able to identify Homer as the father of Bart Simpson, while only 21% could name one of Homer’s epic Greek poems…73% of those polled able to name all three of The Three Stooges, while only 42% could name the three branches of government…Krypton was identified correctly by 60% of the respondents as Superman’s planet of origin, while only 37% were able to name Mercury as the closest planet to the sun…57% were able to correctly identify Harry Potter…Tony Blair as the current Prime Minister of England - only 50%… ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/48 "2006-08-16T15:34:42Z")
Well, **Tris** is kinda right for at least some of the early opposition to evolution. [William Jennings Bryan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jennings_Bryan) opposed evolution because he didn’t like the social implications. Sure, he was flawed in that he couldn’t seperate social Darwinism from actual evolutionary Darwinism, but it’s not the same as opposing it because it supposedly contradicts the bible. This William Jennings Bryan guy actually seems kind of cool from the article. He was “a peace advocate… and one of the most prominent leaders of the Progressive Movement.” “In his presidential bids, he promoted Free Silver in 1896, anti-imperialism in 1900, and antitrust in 1908, calling on all Democrats to renounce conservatism, fight the trusts and big banks, and embrace progressive ideas.” To bad he supported Prohibition. Still though, I wish more of today’s Christians were more like him. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/49 "2006-08-16T15:39:01Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] I simply question the relevance of the history of the Lynchburg Colony to this issue. You’re the only Doper I’ve ever seen citing it as a significant contributor to conservative Christian mistrust in “science”. We’ve had our share of creationists on this board, and most just appear to be anti-intellectual trolls who probably couldn’t find Lynchburg on a map, much less hold an informed discussion on its sociological impact. [/QUOTE] While I doubt that the historic facts are a significant element for lots of creationists, it is relevant to the history of the creationist movement, or more accurately the anti-evolution movement. No, it is not the entire story, and it certainly is not a logical support to the pseudo science of creationism. But, when you begin to investigate the actual emotional basis of Christian rejection of evolution, many threads will lead you to the town of Lynchburg. It had a very emotional and politically vicious history that continued on into the 1960s. The Moral Majority was founded there. Evangelical groups were sent out from there, and still are. The people in the middle of it are not speaking of some theoretical misapplication of scientific authority. They are speaking of the imprisonment, forced sterilization, forced abortion, and Lobotomy of their neighbors, friends, and relatives. No, it is not current. No, it is not the only reason that the movement has power. But if you ignore the basis for the fervor of the core revulsion for evolutionists, you are not aware of what you are opposing. I am a Christian. I find Creationism to be repugnant, for religious as well as scientific reasons. But I don’t have to vilify the people who recall the evil done in Darwin’s name. Darwin would not support it, but a very broad spectrum of scientists offered tacit approval, or indifference to the entire concept of eugenics, and the genetic isolation of “undesirables.” Yes, there are ignorant and bigoted people who fear knowledge. There are ignorant and bigoted people who agree with you, too. That doesn’t mean that you formed your opinions from ignorance and bigotry. Fight ignorance, not the ignorant. Tris ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/50 "2006-08-16T16:20:33Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] While I doubt that the historic facts are a significant element for lots of creationists, it is relevant to the history of the creationist movement, or more accurately the anti-evolution movement. No, it is not the entire story, and it certainly is not a logical support to the pseudo science of creationism. But, when you begin to investigate the actual emotional basis of Christian rejection of evolution, many threads will lead you to the town of Lynchburg. It had a very emotional and politically vicious history that continued on into the 1960s. The Moral Majority was founded there. Evangelical groups were sent out from there, and still are. The people in the middle of it are not speaking of some theoretical misapplication of scientific authority. They are speaking of the imprisonment, forced sterilization, forced abortion, and Lobotomy of their neighbors, friends, and relatives. No, it is not current. No, it is not the only reason that the movement has power. But if you ignore the basis for the fervor of the core revulsion for evolutionists, you are not aware of what you are opposing. I am a Christian. I find Creationism to be repugnant, for religious as well as scientific reasons. But I don’t have to vilify the people who recall the evil done in Darwin’s name. Darwin would not support it, but a very broad spectrum of scientists offered tacit approval, or indifference to the entire concept of eugenics, and the genetic isolation of “undesirables.” Yes, there are ignorant and bigoted people who fear knowledge. There are ignorant and bigoted people who agree with you, too. That doesn’t mean that you formed your opinions from ignorance and bigotry. Fight ignorance, not the ignorant. Tris [/QUOTE] Now explain why Germany, where there was a small experiment in Eugenics, has higher belief in evolution than the uS. I would imagine Jews in the US accept evolution more than Christians as well. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/51 "2006-08-16T16:24:11Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] You sure? Why? [/QUOTE] **Monkey with a Gun** added those who do not believe in evolution with this who are unsure to show that most people in the US reject evolution. In response, **Loopy Dude** added those who believe in evolution with those who are unsure to show that most people reject creationsism. This was to counter what he saw as a misuse of statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/52 "2006-08-16T16:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] While I doubt that the historic facts are a significant element for lots of creationists, it is relevant to the history of the creationist movement, or more accurately the anti-evolution movement. No, it is not the entire story, and it certainly is not a logical support to the pseudo science of creationism. But, when you begin to investigate the actual emotional basis of Christian rejection of evolution, many threads will lead you to the town of Lynchburg. [/QUOTE] Again, I’m not seeing it. I don’t want to minimize this particular attrocity, but in the heart of Western Europe, an eugenics program vastly more pervasive and horrific in scale killed millions, and yet the same region today is among the most accepting of evolutionary theory. There must have been something quite different about the two places to make one react so virulently to a comparatively small episode of pseudoscientific abuses. It’s true that many Western Europeans have what I would characterize as an irrational fear of the repercussions of genetics research because of the legacy of the Third Reich, but widespread of the theoretical and factual bases of biology are not remotely part of that development. There’s something seriously missing from your implication, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/53 "2006-08-16T16:48:22Z")
D’oh! **DanBlather** made my point more succinctly, and beat me by quite a stretch of time! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/54 "2006-08-16T17:36:37Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Now look at the same exact region. Lynchburg VA. Home of religious intolerance of evolution, and pretty much anything to do with medically based ethical standards. They may have reacted beyond reason, but the reaction was to a thing of demonic levels of evil, done by scientists, in the name of science. [/QUOTE] Do you happen to have a reference that links the Lynchburg Colony to a rejection of (some) science, specifically by people who would consider themselves to be among the Moral Majority? I understand the point you are making, but my own experience leads me to a different conclusion. A majority of the folks whom I have known who self-identified as among the Moral Majority would not condem the court decision of 1927 and would cluck their tongues that the “liberals” or “the government” had “interfered” and cancelled the sterilization project. I make no claim that they would support the eugenics program as it developed under Hitler, but I have not encountered any righteous wrath against the Lynchburg Colony among them. I would almost guess that the nearby locations of the Lynchburg Colony for the Epileptics and Feebleminded and the Thomas Road Baptist Church are nothing more than an odd coincidence. I would be interested to see any actual references to Falwell or his associates speaking out against the Lynchburg Colony (especially interesting if their comments dated to the early 1970s). ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/55 "2006-08-16T18:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] **Monkey with a Gun** added those who do not believe in evolution with this who are unsure to show that most people in the US reject evolution. In response, **Loopy Dude** added those who believe in evolution with those who are unsure to show that most people reject creationsism. This was to counter what he saw as a misuse of statistics. [/QUOTE] That’s backwards. I used the numbers to show that 61% agree with evolution at least a little. It was the article and **loopydude** that was implying that most Americans reject the theory. It was me, damnit, that viewed it as a misuse of statistics. Anywho, I’m going to assume you just slipped. That done, let me address the other posters who don’t see bias in this web article. I can’t _prove_ that it’s biased anymore than I can _prove_ that FOXNEWS is biased. Does anybody know how they worded the questions for this study? Does anybody know the sample size? Does anybody know if the questionaires were sent at random? The article didn’t say, and at this point, that’s all I got to go on. Just another questionaire “study” implying that Americans have only stopped dragging their knuckles last Tuesday. How many times have we heard this before? It ain’t the start of the of an American Theocracy any more than being close to last in education, by similar “studies”, mean that the average high school graduate can’t find his ass with both hands. Don’t panic, take these things with a grain of salt. To quote Mark Twain: “There are three types of lies; Lies, damn lies, and statistics” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/56 "2006-08-16T19:04:28Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] That’s backwards. I used the numbers to show that 61% agree with evolution at least a little. It was the article and **loopydude** that was implying that most Americans reject the theory. It was me, damnit, that viewed it as a misuse of statistics. Anywho, I’m going to assume you just slipped. That done, let me address the other posters who don’t see bias in this web article. I can’t _prove_ that it’s biased anymore than I can _prove_ that FOXNEWS is biased. Does anybody know how they worded the questions for this study? Does anybody know the sample size? Does anybody know if the questionaires were sent at random? The article didn’t say, and at this point, that’s all I got to go on. Just another questionaire “study” implying that Americans have only stopped dragging their knuckles last Tuesday. How many times have we heard this before? It ain’t the start of the of an American Theocracy any more than being close to last in education, by similar “studies”, mean that the average high school graduate can’t find his ass with both hands. Don’t panic, take these things with a grain of salt. To quote Mark Twain: “There are three types of lies; Lies, damn lies, and statistics” [/QUOTE] I dunno. The results are consistent with other polls I’ve seen where we do know what was asked. [Link.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/57 "2006-08-16T19:08:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I dunno. The results are consistent with other polls I’ve seen where we do know what was asked. [Link.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml) [/QUOTE] _sigh_. From your cite: “But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.” Don’t panic, people. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/58 "2006-08-16T19:10:02Z")
The rejection of Darwinism as a movement in the USA predates Lynchburgh. Can you really link Scopes with that incident as some sort of backlash? I mean the law that the Scopes Monkey Trial was testing dates from 1925 The constitutionality of forced sterilization was tested in 1927. Seems to me there was enough of a political movement against Evolution prior to the henious acts of lynchburgh. No, This new rejection is linked to the revivalism of Religion and birth of the Moral majority movement in the late 1970’s and early 80’s. This is a reaction against social change and the earlier decline of the power of religion rather than the vilification of science for a past act. These new creationsists are the last hiccup of the cognizant dissonance a society coming to grips with the age of information has to go through. One last kick of the mule before accepting the inevitable. I give it a generation or two and those numbers who don’t believe should drop… so long as legislators don’t keep trying to reinforce the old ideas. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/59 "2006-08-16T19:17:14Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] _sigh_. From your cite: “But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.” Don’t panic, people. [/QUOTE] So? Do the numbers differ subsatantially from the OP’s cite? And don’t tell me not to panic-- I was the first one in this thread to say that! ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863/60 "2006-08-16T19:19:10Z")
BTW, who’s panicking? There’s been one post in this thread expressing a fear of theocracy, and that one had some nice disclaimers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-next-to-last-in-international-evolution-survey/368863.md?page=4)