USA on the decline?

I would agree - especially since he starts this paragraph with the words “My own country once had leaders comparable to [leaders he has just spent the previous paragraphs praising for their political astutness]”.


well I believe that the rapid exponential growth with the industrial and technological revolution really changes all of that.

I know the Romans came up with a lot of stuff that was pretty advanced relatively speaking, but other than that, if I’m not mistaken- weren’t things pretty stagnant as far as weapons, communication, etc?

I think now with the rapid pace of everything now- I think the same goes for the possibility of decline. and of course the freightening possibility (enevitibility? boy I hope not) of massive Nuclear catastrophy, I think that it could only take a few minutes for BIG change…

People HATE us… Of course people hate other people all over the world. I could be wrong, but it seems that more people hate us and hate us more, than anyone else in the world.

Of course our military is the biggest in the world, and would undoubtedly be pretty successful in defending any sort of invasion, but I think that as long as we are percieved as “#1” or “the great opressor” or any sort of that sort of thing, people are gonna want us down.

But as far as Joe Six-Pack… wouldn’t it be a pretty safe assumtion, there are just as many “ignant” folk here as there ever have been? relatively speaking. same with the rest of the world.

damn its time for me to go to bed.

Well, like those wacky Romans themselves used to say,

“Oderint dum metuant”

or, “Let them hate, so long as they fear”.

Two questions:

  1. What was Mr. Card smoking when he wrote that?; and
  2. Where can I get some?

His definition of a nation in decline is that the people of the nation no longer have the will to be well-led? And he points to Thailand as an example of a well-led nation?

Thailand’s democratic governments have lasted, on average, six months since 1932. (Add in military regimes, and the average length of government goes up to a whopping 16 months. Thai governments have tended to be short-lived affairs, with the parties involved simply trying to grab as much patronage (and skim from the drug trade) as possible before the government collapses.

The current Prime Minister was declared ineligible to run for office a few days before the election by the Election Commission for lying about his assets, but the Thai people, supposedly desiring to be “well-led,” voted for him anyway.

Despite the fact that Thailand has not been well-led, and hasn’t been for a long time, Thailand is emphatically not on the decline. It has made tremendous strides in standards of living, economy, health care, etc.

So, while there may be an issue about the US’ position in the world and whether it is in decline (we debated this about 4 months ago, but I can’t find the thread on search), Mr. Card destroys his own argument by choosing a horrendous comparison.


While I enjoyed the book “Shadow of the Hegemon” immensely, I did find his Afterword to be kind of hokey.

In the Afterword he mentions the unconscionable bombing of Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998.

It’s funny how times change. Now the thinking is that we didn’t bomb them ENOUGH.

Since I was the one that brought up the Roman Empire, I’ll address it. When I said the Roman Empire was in decline, I suppose I started the decline from the period of Julius Caesar, so that means that I think that when it BECAME an empire is when it actually started to decline.

I think that the United States under GW is becoming more and more that way. Some people will argue that he inherited a democratically elected position. I don’t want to get into that. However, I do think that he is a bit imperialist for my tastes. He is exerting American military power to achieve American agendas and for the most part our country supports him in that. I see that as evidence of decline. Imperialism and colonialism are not accepted practice any longer, in fact they are frowned upon by the world at large. We were able to build an empire when colonialism was common and Manifest Destiny was accepted because everyone was doing it. Now that it’s not ok, we won’t last long on that track. Either we’ll stop it, maybe delaying our decline, or someone will stop us, hastening our decline.