# USA really too different from English-speaking world to have similar policies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193 "2009-01-27T06:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/181 "2009-01-29T09:38:43Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Shrug. I was taught that the dole was charity. Then you were taught incorrectly. The dole is your right as an unemployed person with respect to the laws regarding unemployment. The tax you paid before becoming unemployed goes towards the system that pays out that dole money. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Where did you get 6.5%? We pay 7.75% here. 25% on almost everything here. We have two reduced rates for certain items. IIRC food is 12% and reading matter is 6%. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/182 "2009-01-29T13:10:09Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > [Paperless hospitals save lives.](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126173721.htm)One of the _benefits_ of adopting UHC is that it can help speed the switch to a paperless hospital _and_ it also makes it _easier and safer_ for a doctor/nurse/medical professional to work at multiple facilities (as so many do these days), since UHC will mean a uniform standard in terms of things like software and the like. If that’s true, then why not simply legislate paperless hospitals and standard software? I’m skeptical that this sort of micromanagement will be that effective, but there’s no need to tie it in to national health care. On a broader note, it seems to me that liberals have a tendency to be overly optimistic about how their ideas will work out. When things don’t work out as well as expected, they often make a True Scotsman type argument. e.g. “That wasn’t Real Gun Control” or “The money spent on Kansas City schools was spent stupidly” In evaluating public policies, one should take it as a given that there will be a lot of stupidity, waste, mismanagement, manipulation by special interests, and so on. Which isn’t to say that the government should never provide services, of course. My opinion only. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/183 "2009-01-29T13:45:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If that’s true, then why not simply legislate paperless hospitals and standard software? I’m skeptical that this sort of micromanagement will be that effective, but there’s no need to tie it in to national health care. I used to program for a hospital system on their medical records systems. One of the problems with universal medical records is the cost of conversion. There are a ton of medical paper records out there, and typing or scanning them all into e-format is going to cost a lot of money and effort. IOW, implementing paperless records is going to cost a lot up front, and the benefits will trickle in over the next twenty years or so. Not necessarily an argument that it shouldn’t happen, just that it will not reduce costs in the short term. > [@I Love Me](#): > > Yeah but that only shows we need to strengthen our educational system as well. Part of the reason so many children are unvaccinated is because their mommies get their medical advice from supermarket tabloids that instruct them not to vaccinate their children because they may “catch the autism” or some such crap. > > I propose UHC and improving our sad public education system OK, could you please produce a cite showing a strong correlation between increased spending on education in the US and improving test scores? No Child Left Behind seems to have cost a fair amount of money - would you agree that it paid for itself with improved vaccination rates? Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/184 "2009-01-29T14:08:30Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Oh fercrissakes. You think you prove me stupid and you smart because you believe that _the government of the United States_ will be able to do something more efficiently and with less cost than private companies and add 47 million more people in on top of it? Jesus. News flash–_Healthcare does not respond to market forces_. Private companies can and will charge extra simply because they can–who’s going to forego that heart transplant because of the cost? So yes, the government can do it more efficiently and with less cost, because healthcare is one of the few markets where the wants of the customers and the wants of the private companies are directly at odds with each other. A sick person can’t easily vote with their wallet, as they would do in most other industries, because the alternative may well be death. I’m generally not opposed to a free market approach to things, but there are some things which it does not handle well. You see all those people who can’t afford care? The ones with chronic conditions they can’t get treated for until something disastrous happens? The ones who go bankrupt from medical bills? The people who have to fight with their insurance companies to get the coverage they’re paying for? _The private system is failing miserably_. The US is a hallmark of how not to manage healthcare to other first world countries. If the current system really worked, don’t you think other countries would be trying to emulate it instead? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/185 "2009-01-29T14:35:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Nice little self-confirmation thing going on there. If some doesn’t agree with you, they are ipso facto stupid. > > You want people who oppose UHC to start posting IQ scores? Mine’s eleventy billion. Well, in this thread you’ve got **curlcoat** & **brazil84** on your side! Most of us can make pretty good guesses. (Although I’m being quite unfair to some mentally challenged folks I’ve met who still manage to have good hearts.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/186 "2009-01-29T14:39:36Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > News flash–_Healthcare does not respond to market forces_. Wow. That’s pretty sweeping. > [@](#): > > Private companies can and will charge extra simply because they can–who’s going to forego that heart transplant because of the cost? Do you agree that most health care spending goes to things that are not life-or-death? Or is it also the case that a private company can charge as much as it likes for an office visit? So, the next time you take your child to the doctor for strep throat, his office can charge you $150,000, and you have no choice but to pay? Or is it possible, even theoretically, to shop around for different insurance plans that cost different amounts, and cover different things? > [@](#): > > So yes, the government can do it more efficiently and with less cost, because healthcare is one of the few markets where the wants of the customers and the wants of the private companies are directly at odds with each other. OK, then government funded health care should cost significantly less than any other sort. After all, the government can simply declare what health services cost, and therefore Medicare-covered visits to a doctor cost only a few pennies. Correct? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/187 "2009-01-29T14:57:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Oh, and by the way, I invite you to fight against this “NIMBYism” you find so digusting by moving to the nearest “bad neighborhood” (i.e. a neighborhood with many underclass folks) and sending your children to public school there. > > That’s assuming you live in the United States, of course. OK, I’m game, just because I want to see where you’ll go with this. I live in West Ridge, aka West Rogers Park, a “bad neighborhood” of Chicago. (Not the worst, true, but not even in the top 40% in crime and reputation. The wikipedia entry was obviously written by the Chamber of Commerce; it’s laughably rosy.) My son attends Sullivan High School, consistently one of the worst high schools in one of the worst public school districts in the nation. It’s on the Failure list for NCLB, meaning that I can technically send him to any other school in the district (that has room to take him) for free, but they’re all Failing, too. It’s 98% low income, 98% “underclass” by both racial definitions and behavioral definitions. There are metal detectors, cops in uniform and key card photo IDs hanging around every student and teachers’ neck. Less than 50% of the students in his district graduate. Both of these facts are consistent with posts that I’ve made here for the last three years. I post a lot, and a lot of personal information. If anyone can refute these claims by quoting a past post, they’re welcome to do it. So…what? What’s your point now? I don’t understand how this challenge supports or refutes your argument in any way, but go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/188 "2009-01-29T15:00:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you agree that most health care spending goes to things that are not life-or-death? Yup. That doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily less necessary. The kid with strep throat can perhaps do without it. The diabetic who needs insulin, not so much. > [@](#): > > So, the next time you take your child to the doctor for strep throat, his office can charge you $150,000, and you have no choice but to pay? What I probably should have said was that it doesn’t respond _well_ to market forces. The demand side of the ‘supply and demand’ equation can’t really be controlled. > [@](#): > > Or is it possible, even theoretically, to shop around for different insurance plans that cost different amounts, and cover different things? That doesn’t work so well if you have a pre-existing condition. If you can’t afford treatment right out, what are the odds you can find a plan in your price range that’ll cover it, if your job doesn’t provide one? No sane private company is likely to charge you _less_ than they know you’ll cost them. > [@](#): > > After all, the government can simply declare what health services cost, and therefore Medicare-covered visits to a doctor cost only a few pennies. Correct? Not exactly. There’s obviously a base cost that needs to be covered (I’m given to understand that some countries pay too little, here). But UHC can keep prices from rising much more than that. I shouldn’t post first thing in the morning… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/189 "2009-01-29T15:01:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Why not? I pay far less in premiums than I get back in services. So you’re fine with a system that subsidizes _your_ healthcare, but not with one that subsidizes somebody else’s? > [@](#): > > Except you can’t conclude that because those countries have UHC. Maybe that is why they pay more in taxes. Defense, Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid consume about a third of the Federal budget each. I’ll let you guess which one of those things Canada doesn’t have to worry about. > [@](#): > > Why is that done? Caps on med school enrolment were enacted in 1996 as part of the Balanced Budget Act, in order to reduce the cost of Medicare. However, Medicare still pays for an awful lot of the total cost of graduate medical study and residency programs (specific numbers are hard to find). In other words, your healthcare is _already_ subsidized. > [@](#): > > Where did you get 6.5%? We pay 7.75% here. It’s the base rate in Florida, and I don’t know where you live. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/190 "2009-01-29T15:28:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s the base rate in Florida, and I don’t know where you live. We’re around 10%. And we have state income tax. And too much snow. Why am I living here? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/191 "2009-01-29T16:56:31Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Perhaps if you took your own advice you would be able to realize that there are quite a few people out there who do not have time to read every single post in every single thread on this board. You are the one that opened his, uh, yap and labeled someone a racist based on apparently nothing. Yes, based on apparently nothing. If you even bothered to read all of _this thread_ there have been numerous examples and links. Just because you’re too lazy to look at the evidence doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Think before you post. I didn’t say that. Trust me, nothing you’ve posted has been a problem for me to understand, since it’s all mostly 10th grade-level ignorance. I was exaggerating for effect, to point out the stupidity of your argument. It’s an old rhetorical device. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/192 "2009-01-29T17:01:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So you’re fine with a system that subsidizes _your_ healthcare, but not with one that subsidizes somebody else’s? That’s because she’s what the Dutch call, “_An asshole simpelton_.” ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/193 "2009-01-29T17:07:04Z")
You do realise the USA is the only first world country without UHC? To quote from [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care) wikipedia article (because it has cites) - [ul] [li]A single payer system could save $286 billion a year in overhead and paperwork. Administrative costs in the U.S. health care system are substantially higher than those in other countries and than in the public sector in the US: one estimate put the total administrative costs at 24 percent of U.S. health care spending.[/li] [li]America spends a far higher percentage of GDP on health care than any other country but has worse ratings on such criteria as quality of care, efficiency of care, access to care, safe care, equity, and wait times, according to the Commonwealth Fund.[/li] [li]Universal health care could act as a subsidy to business, at no cost thereto. (Indeed, the Big Three of U.S. car manufacturers cite health-care provision as a reason for their ongoing financial travails. The cost of health insurance to U.S. car manufacturers adds between $900 and $1,400 to each car made in the U.S.A.)[/li] [li]The profit motive adversely affects the cost and quality of health care. If managed care programs and their concomitant provider networks are abolished, then doctors would no longer be guaranteed patients solely on the basis of their membership in a provider group and regardless of the quality of care they provide. Theoretically, quality of care would increase as true competition for patients is restored.[/li] [li]According to an estimate by Dr. Marcia Angell roughly 50% of health care dollars are spent on health care, the rest go to various middlepersons and intermediaries. A streamlined, non-profit, universal system would increase the efficiency with which money is spent on health care.[/li] [li]In countries in Western Europe with public universal health care, private health care is also available, and one may choose to use it if desired. Most of the advantages of private health care continue to be present, see also two-tier health care.[/li] [li]…in countries with universal health care, the government spends less tax money per person on health care than the U.S. For example, in France, the government spends $569 less per person on health care than in the United States. This would allow the U.S. to adopt universal health care, while simultaneously cutting government spending and cutting taxes.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/194 "2009-01-29T17:15:42Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > You do realise the USA is the only first world country without UHC? Ahh, but you forget that the USA is _different_ than all other first world countries. Because…uh…big government bad!..freedom!..black people!!! That’s the ticket! ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/195 "2009-01-29T17:24:22Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You are the idiot. What do you think the cause of that “alarmingly growing income disparity” and why it is getting harder and harder to live on a middle class income? Go find out, I’ll wait. Might be interesting to see what you come up with. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that middle class wages have declined in real purchasing power since about 1980 despite the growth of our economy and increases in worker efficiency? ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/196 "2009-01-29T17:37:29Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > Maybe it has something to do with the fact that middle class wages have declined in real purchasing power since about 1980 despite the growth of our economy and increases in worker efficiency? **curlcoat** : sure, because all the middle class purchasing power is being given away to the indigent poor, amirite?!?!?! Damn trashy poor folk, taking all our money! ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/197 "2009-01-29T17:43:39Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > You do realise the USA is the only first world country without UHC? How would you define “first world”? ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/198 "2009-01-29T17:45:23Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > How would you define “first world”? How would you define “define”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/199 "2009-01-29T17:49:52Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > How would you define “first world”? How would you define, “_Stupid shitheel who plays semantic games to deflect attention from how utterly pathetic and without merit his position is_”? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/200 "2009-01-29T18:01:14Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > OK, I’m game, just because I want to see where you’ll go with this. > > I live in West Ridge, aka West Rogers Park, a “bad neighborhood” of Chicago. (Not the worst, true, but not even in the top 40% in crime and reputation. The wikipedia entry was obviously written by the Chamber of Commerce; it’s laughably rosy.) > > My son attends Sullivan High School, consistently one of the worst high schools in one of the worst public school districts in the nation. It’s on the Failure list for NCLB, meaning that I can technically send him to any other school in the district (that has room to take him) for free, but they’re all Failing, too. It’s 98% low income, 98% “underclass” by both racial definitions and behavioral definitions. There are metal detectors, cops in uniform and key card photo IDs hanging around every student and teachers’ neck. Less than 50% of the students in his district graduate. > > Both of these facts are consistent with posts that I’ve made here for the last three years. I post a lot, and a lot of personal information. If anyone can refute these claims by quoting a past post, they’re welcome to do it. > > So…what? What’s your point now? My point is the same as it was before. That most educated people are just as elitist as me in their desire not to live in areas which are heavily populated by folks from the underclass. Or to send their children to such schools. Assuming you are telling the truth, one can exclude the possibility that you are a sanctimonious hypocrite like **Gam Zeh Yaavor**. Congratulations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193.md?page=11)