# USA really too different from English-speaking world to have similar policies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193 "2009-01-27T06:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/101 "2009-01-28T02:11:15Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > How much are you putting away? COBRA can be incredibly expensive. I’ve seen quotes as high as 2K a month. That can be difficult to manage when an unemployment check is $200 a week. Further, if the company goes out of business or discontinues its group health plan, there is no COBRA. > **[How COBRA Insurance Works](https://health.howstuffworks.com/health-insurance/cobra-insurance.htm)** > > Most Americans are covered by their employers' group health insurance. But what happens if they lose their jobs? COBRA health insurance allows people to continue their coverage, but on their own dime. “Should you lose your job because your company goes bankrupt, however, it usually means that the group health insurance plan is lost as well. If there’s no plan to continue, COBRA can offer no assistance. In other words, a continuation of benefits through COBRA only applies when you lose your ability to participate in an existing group health plan. If your company chooses to end its group plan on its own, COBRA benefits can no longer apply.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/102 "2009-01-28T02:30:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s a lot more reasonable to compare the US to Canada than to compare the US to South Africa. The US and Canada are both first world countries with similar high standards of living and relatively similar income distributions. South Africa is a third world country with endemic poverty and vastly more income inequality. There are a lot of similarities between the United States and Canada, but the critical question here is the size of the underclass. America’s is a lot bigger than that of Canada. Enough that it has a big impact on our murder rates as compared between the two countries. You can pretend that this difference does not exist by labeling both countries as “first world,” but that won’t make the difference go away. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/103 "2009-01-28T02:39:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > There are a lot of similarities between the United States and Canada, but the critical question here is the size of the underclass. America’s is a lot bigger than that of Canada. Enough that it has a big impact on our murder rates as compared between the two countries. You can pretend that this difference does not exist by labeling both countries as “first world,” but that won’t make the difference go away. How about I pretend this difference doesn’t exist by using an actual meaningful statistic, like [the percentage of each country’s population living below the poverty line](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line)? UK 14% France 6.2% United States 12% Germany 11% Canada 10.8% And, just for kicks: South Africa **50%** Man, look at the huge underclass on _us_! ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/104 "2009-01-28T02:40:55Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You’re a fucking moron. We spend more than just about any nation on the fucking planet. In turn we get shorter lives and more health care expenses. Since this has nothing to do with what I said, I can only assume you are the moron. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/105 "2009-01-28T02:47:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **curlcoat** is simply ignorant. Because I don’t agree that you can use what works in a small island nation as proof it will work here, with our current problems? One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here - how is the UK system paid for? I remember hearing that the income tax over there is much higher than even ours. If you have that many underclass over there, those folks probably aren’t paying into the system, at least not enought to support what they take out. Who makes up the shortfall? > [@](#): > > We’re not talking police/teacher-type salaries, but your average orthopaedic surgeon has a very, very good reason to oppose universal healthcare. Sounds like the quality of our specialists might go down then? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/106 "2009-01-28T02:50:19Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > Wait, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10653994&highlight=disability#post10653994) you talk about being on disability and receiving checks from the government and, I would assume, government medical care for all of the disabilities you mention having. So, basically you are saying that the reason we shouldn’t have universal health care is because of people like you? Why would you assume I am getting government medical care? Disability has zero to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/107 "2009-01-28T02:56:02Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Because I don’t agree that you can use what works in a small island nation as proof it will work here, with our current problems? Not at all. It’s because you believe that the US has more people sitting around collecting unemployment than Canada does, without any actual evidence other than having met a couple of Canadians. > [@](#): > > One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here - how is the UK system paid for? I remember hearing that the income tax over there is much higher than even ours. If you have that many underclass over there, those folks probably aren’t paying into the system, at least not enought to support what they take out. Who makes up the shortfall? Income tax over there _is_ higher\*. Partly, it’s because there more people over there collecting unemployment benefits and the like. Capital gains taxes are higher, too, which makes up a lot of the difference. London is (for the moment) the world’s financial capital. More than 50% of the world’s securities are traded in the City. Out of curiosity, are you under the impression that our (US) income taxes are _high_? > [@](#): > > Sounds like the quality of our specialists might go down then? It might. On the other hand, where are they going to go? Interesting fact: just over 25% of all US physicians are foreign born. \*Not that much higher. The highest marginal UK rate is 40%. The highest marginal US rate is 35%. ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/108 "2009-01-28T02:58:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How about I pretend this difference doesn’t exist by using an actual meaningful statistic, like [the percentage of each country’s population living below the poverty line](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line)? > > UK 14% > > France 6.2% > > United States 12% > > Germany 11% > > Canada 10.8% > > And, just for kicks: > > South Africa **50%** > > Man, look at the huge underclass on _us_! Aahh, but you’re forgetting the most important thing (in AK84’s mind) that links the US and South African “underclass.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/109 "2009-01-28T02:59:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How about I pretend this difference doesn’t exist by using an actual meaningful statistic, like [the percentage of each country’s population living below the poverty line](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line)? You gotta be kidding me. This from your cite: > [@](#): > > Definitions of poverty vary considerably among nations. Anyway, it’s nice to know that Mexico has fewer people living in poverty than the United Kingdom and China has fewer people living in poverty than the United States. I guess that’s why so many Americans are paying money to sneak into China to work in indentured servitude. Oh, and did you notice that Jamaica has less people living in poverty than Spain? :rolleyes: ETA: Are you seriously claiming that Mexico has fewer people living in poverty than the United Kingdom; that China has fewer people living in poverty than the United States; and that Jamaica has fewer people living in poverty than Spain? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/110 "2009-01-28T03:00:41Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Exactly. “Underclass types”? Pathetic. I hate racists who are too pussy to actually admit they’re racists. Which would be you. I’m not the one using the underclass term, but here our “underclass” tends to be Mexicans, blacks and whites. Apparently we are equal opportunity when it comes to taking care of poor people, which is probably why it is getting harder and harder to live on a middle class income. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/111 "2009-01-28T03:02:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > No, I wanted a cite for the claim you actually made. > > Anyway, you are basically arguing – as far as I can tell – that the discrepancy between murder rates between the US and the UK can be explained (in part) by the liberal gun laws we have in the US. However, this argument can be easily dispatched by looking at different states within the United States. > > Not much less reasonable than comparing the USA to Canada. Have you ever thought about why Americans are desperate enough to be risking huge prison sentences and committing so much crime? Maybe Canada with it’s safety nets is on to something? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/112 "2009-01-28T03:08:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Have you ever thought about why Americans are desperate enough to be risking huge prison sentences and committing so much crime? I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’m reasonably satisfied that liberal ideas such as enacting gun controls; ramping up school spending; and otherwise spending a lot of money on social programs won’t have much of an impact. It’s not as though stuff like that hasn’t been tried. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/113 "2009-01-28T03:12:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You gotta be kidding me. > > This from your cite: > > Anyway, it’s nice to know that Mexico has fewer people living in poverty than the United Kingdom and China has fewer people living in poverty than the United States. > > I guess that’s why so many Americans are paying money to sneak into China to work in indentured servitude. > > Oh, and did you notice that Jamaica has less people living in poverty than Spain? > > :rolleyes: > > ETA: > > Are you seriously claiming that Mexico has fewer people living in poverty than the United Kingdom; that China has fewer people living in poverty than the United States; and that Jamaica has fewer people living in poverty than Spain? Poverty is by its very nature a relative term. Jamaica probably does have fewer people living in poverty relative to other Jamaicans than Spain. You can’t determine whether an individual lives in poverty relative to some sort of global average because of purchasing power parity. However, _you_ made the claim that the US has a comparatively huge underclass. I have provided a cite which discredits your claim. I haven’t seen you provide any sort of cite to bolster your claim. > [@](#): > > I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’m reasonably satisfied that liberal ideas such as enacting gun controls; ramping up school spending; and otherwise spending a lot of money on social programs won’t have much of an impact. > > It’s not as though stuff like that hasn’t been tried. Remind me when we tried gun control, again? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/114 "2009-01-28T03:14:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not at all. It’s because you believe that the US has more people sitting around collecting unemployment than Canada does, without any actual evidence other than having met a couple of Canadians. Read what I actually wrote. I said I lived up on the border, which would indicate to anyone that we are talking more than a couple of Canadians, I married a Canadian which indicates Canadian inlaws, and I have traveled quite a bit there. I also said nothing about unemployment benefits. I also said I was talking over 10 years ago and don’t know if it is still like that, but they did have UHC back then. > [@](#): > > Income tax over there _is_ higher\*. Partly, it’s because there more people over there collecting unemployment benefits and the like. Capital gains taxes are higher, too, which makes up a lot of the difference. London is (for the moment) the world’s financial capital. More than 50% of the world’s securities are traded in the City. So, as I thought, UHC is not self sustaining at all. In other words, something else for the middle class to pay for. > [@](#): > > Out of curiosity, are you under the impression that our (US) income taxes are _high_? I have no idea how they compare to the rest of the world, but the amount we pay is ridiculous, between the fed and the state. > [@](#): > > It might. On the other hand, where are they going to go? Into some other field. Just as the potential nurses are now. > [@](#): > > The highest marginal UK rate is 40%. The highest marginal US rate is 35% Does this 35% include state income tax? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/115 "2009-01-28T03:26:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Poverty is by its very nature a relative term. :shrug: That’s your problem, not mine. I did not define “underclass” using your definition of poverty. Most reasonable people would agree that Mexico has more people living in poverty than does the United Kingdom; that China has more people living in poverty than the United States; and that Jamaica has more people living in poverty than in Spain. Using your own definition of “poverty,” you disagree. Fine. You’ve decided to define “underclass” using your definition of poverty which most reasonable people would not use. Then using your special definition of “underclass,” you have shown that the UK is comparable to the US. So what? Anyway, please answer my question, because I’m skeptical that even you would use the word “poverty” in the way you have implied. Are you seriously claiming that Mexico has fewer people living in poverty than the United Kingdom; that China has fewer people living in poverty than the United States; and that Jamaica has fewer people living in poverty than Spain? A simple yes or no will do. > [@](#): > > However, _you_ made the claim that the US has a comparatively huge underclass. > > I have provided a cite which discredits your claim. Only by interpreting my claim in an unreasonable way. > [@](#): > > Remind me when we tried gun control, again? At a federal level, in 1938, 1964, 1986, 1993, and 1994. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/116 "2009-01-28T03:28:31Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Read what I actually wrote. I said I lived up on the border, which would indicate to anyone that we are talking more than a couple of Canadians, I married a Canadian which indicates Canadian inlaws, and I have traveled quite a bit there. I also said nothing about unemployment benefits. That’s what “the dole” is- collecting unemployment benefits. What did you think it meant? > [@](#): > > So, as I thought, UHC is not self sustaining at all. In other words, something else for the middle class to pay for. The middle (and upper) class already pays for Medicare and Medicaid. The difference is that under UHC the middle and upper classes pay a bit more and _they_ get healthcare, too. > [@](#): > > I have no idea how they compare to the rest of the world, but the amount we pay is ridiculous, between the fed and the state. Why is it ridiculous? We pay less tax than just about every other developed nation, other than a tiny tax haven here and there (Hong Kong, the Caymans, etc.) > [@](#): > > Into some other field. Just as the potential nurses are now. There will still be people who choose to practice medicine for reasons other than the profit motive. It’s not as though prospective med students will have to resign themselves to a life of penury. My parents were among the top 25% or so of British wage earners. In any case, nurses aren’t going into other fields because they aren’t getting paid enough. Nursing pay is about as high as it’s ever been in relative terms. The current nursing shortage is caused by an increase in the number of opportunities for women without an accompanying decrease in the social stigma of being a male nurse. > [@](#): > > Does this 35% include state income tax? Sort of. For some middle-income households, a significant portion of your state income tax can be deducted from your Federal income tax. If anything, the practical difference is more than 5% because Britons pay much higher luxury and other “extra” taxes, including 15% VAT on just about all purchases. (17.5% until last month). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/117 "2009-01-28T03:32:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that Mexico has fewer people living in poverty than the United Kingdom; that China has fewer people living in poverty than the United States; and that Jamaica has fewer people living in poverty than Spain? > > A simple yes or no will do. To be honest, I don’t know. I’ve never been to Jamaica or Mexico. However, given the numbers, I’d have to say yes. > [@](#): > > At a federal level, in 1938, 1964, 1986, 1993, and 1994. I don’t recall blanket bans on private handgun possession in any of those years. _That’s_ gun control. What you are referring to is political grandstanding with a veneer of “won’t someone please think of the children?” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/118 "2009-01-28T03:33:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I did not define “underclass” using your definition of poverty. How do you define underclass? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/119 "2009-01-28T03:36:41Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The United States has a much bigger underclass (per capita) than does Canada or the United Kingdom. Which is illustrated by the fact that the US murder rate is triple that of Canada. > > . How are you defining “underclass”? Besides the chronically unemployed, do you include low wage workers? Are you asserting that the workers who do those jobs in Canada are better paid than their US counterparts, because the system there tends to work more against income disparity? I probably wouldn’t disagree with you if that’s what you’re saying, but would like to know how you substantiate that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193/120 "2009-01-28T03:48:31Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > As for why the US can’t have a UHC: my personal opinion is that of a deep down difference in ideology. There is definitely a matter of ideology, but it’s the sort of ideology that comes out of conservative think tanks and right wing politicians. I think the more left wing 90% of the population would be willing to consider some sort of single payer system. Even some traditionally conservative types are beginning to be less resistant to it, for example doctors who see that the present system doesn’t work anymore, and business people who don’t care for the fact that insurance tied to your job has become the norm. It’s not that they’re against providing benefits, but that they justifiably ask why, in our system, the employment relationship has become the center as regards medical care? ONe thing I notice lately about ideology is that one now hears the other industrialized countries that do provide national health insurance disdainfully described as “the socialist countries”. It’s very reminiscent of the way people used to talk about Communist countries during the cold war, and it now seems as if the idea of a more extensive government has now become their enemy. But this, again, comes from the right wingers, and it’s meant with a lot of negative spin. I’m sure you wouldn’t hear Obama say it, or other left-of-center politicians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-really-too-different-from-english-speaking-world-to-have-similar-policies/483193.md?page=7)