# USA turns Tikrit into Iraq's West Bank **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855 "2003-11-18T04:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/1 "2003-11-18T04:46:11Z")
I am truly disgusted with this. American forces are employing punitive tactics which are unacceptable to any moral or civilized person. Punishing populations just in sheer frustration that they are not winning the war. This is unacceptable to decent people anywhere and any idiot knows this type of thing will only generate more opposition to the USA in Iraq and around the world. > [@](#): > > [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle\_east/story.jsp?story=464771](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=464771) > > It is the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but transported to Iraq. A town is imprisoned by razor wire. The entrance is guarded by soldiers, protected by sand bags, concrete barricades and a machine-gun nest. > > Only those people with an identification card issued by the occupation authorities are allowed in or, more importantly, out. > > “Hey, this is just like Gaza, isn’t it?” a fiery-eyed young Iraqi policeman shouted at us from behind the chest-high, three-layer wire coils which separate his home from the rest of the surrounding dead-flat Iraqi landscape, Sunni Triangle heartland. “We’re not happy. Not happy!” > > This is Awja, the wealthy enclave outside Tikrit where Saddam Hussein grew up. It has long been a centre of pro-Saddam, anti-American sentiments, home to the ousted dictator’s closest tribesmen, his cronies and his relatives. The United States military says it is also the source of persistent violent insurgency. > > “We were asleep,” recalled Mohammed Shakr al-Nassiri, 33, a shopkeeper. “We did hear some work going on during the night. When we got up, we found all this barbed wire around us. We don’t understand the point of it. Why us? There’s been resistance all over Iraq.” In the case of Awja, the Americans appear to have resorted to this strategy after concluding they have no hope of winning over the people > [@](#): > > [http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/17/sprj.irq.int.main/](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/17/sprj.irq.int.main/) > > The U.S. military unleashed what was described as a “massive” offensive against insurgents based around ex-president Saddam Hussein’s hometown of Tikrit, U.S. military sources said. > > Strikes in the town of Ad Dwar, north of Tikrit, destroyed several buildings, including houses of individuals believed to be involved in the shooting down of a U.S. helicopter on November 7. Also targeted by U.S artillery was an abandoned summer palace belonging to Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, an official in the deposed regime who is No. 6 on the list of 55 most wanted Iraqis. > > A military source said the offensive is designed “to let the Iraqis know that the attacks on the coalition will not be tolerated.” Destruction of property in reprisals and punishment of whole groups of people. It would be sickening in any case but the fact that it is being done by the US makes it so much worse. It is a black mark and I am afraid things can get worse. This is a spiral which has no end in sight. Like Guantanamo has been condemned by every civilized country, so should these actions be condemned. They have no place in a civilized society. They are barbaric and have to be stopped. If the entire population of the entire town is so dead set against the occupation maybe the Americans should just get the fuck out of there because punishing entire populations is just not acceptable. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/2 "2003-11-18T05:01:17Z")
**sailor** , I sincerely hope someone comes in here and proves you entirely wrong, down to the merest detail. As I said in the other thread, I am very troubled by the word “including” in the phrase “…including houses of individuals believed to be involved in the shooting …” This cannot be interpreted to mean anything _else but_ that the homes of innocent persons were also forfeit. Even if it were not immoral and uncivilized…and it is…it also awesomely stupid. Unless theres a bigger adjective than “awesomely”. Frankly, I would feel better if this turned out to be black propaganda spread by America’s enemies, without a word of truth to it. Nothing personal, **sailor** , but I really hope you’re full of it. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/3 "2003-11-18T05:30:13Z")
Of course I would feel much better if this were not happening but just wishing it would not happen is not going to change anything. Do you have any reason to doubt the sources? I have seen it independently reported (in worse terms I might add) by the Spanish media. The articles include very specific names of places, persons and events. Don’t you think that if this were not true it would be extremely easy to disprove? If they turn out to be false those responsible should hang by the balls but, sadly, all the evidence so far leads me to believe the US command has truly lost it and are just lashing out in blind rage caused by their frustration. \>\> Nothing personal, sailor, but I really hope you’re full of it. WTF does that mean? I am repeating the news. I am not personally vouching for anything. I have not seen it happen. If the news turns out to be false I will have been mislead but the multiple sources all appear reliable and it all matches the direction events have been taking. It’s not like it comes out of nowhere. I’ll be the first one glad to know it is not really happening but I don’t have much hope. Do you have good reasons to believe it is false? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/4 "2003-11-18T06:07:47Z")
Nope. I only wish I did. Whats even more troubling is the silence in response. I _want_ to see a ferocious denial, vociferous, outraged. I want to know that we still recognize bestial behavior for what it is, that we would be shocked to be accused of, much less be guilty of committing. We’re the Americans, we don’t do that sort of thing. “Reprisals” are part of the repetoire of thugs and tyrants. Sure as _Hell_ isn’t the action of a “liberator”. And when I’m done being mad about how wrong it is, I’ll start in being mad about how goddam mutherfucking brain-dead _stupid!!_… (Just so I’m entirely clear…there is zero intention to “dis” friend **sailor**. I just hope he’s wrong. I rather doubt it…) ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/5 "2003-11-18T06:09:25Z")
As I’ve said in GD, Bush has to do just this if he’s to gain negotiating leverage with Europe and the UN; no way are they even going to contemplate getting him off that hook unless he looks to be getting a somewhat better degree of control. Then it’ll be their turn to worry He’ll be working on that leverage for a while yet, though; lots more suppression to come! Not to mention the diplomatic bluffs and double-bluffs. I’m guessing the ideal deal he’ll be hoping to get is: US keeps control of oil, pipes, refineries, etc., UN does the wider nation building in conjunction with the US stooges. Most troops and all reservists home for July and the Victory Parade in October. What happens if this backfires is pretty unknowable, imho. I guess it gets left to the Democrat president. Fwiw, I think this is probably good news in the sense that it speeds up the general process and makes it more likely the UN will be in situ comfortably nbefore next July. Better for the whole nation building thing, imho. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/6 "2003-11-18T06:19:48Z")
And while I’m typing this out, Fox News is talking about the new “get tough” policy. How if the Iraqis being raided give up thier weapons, they will be dealt with leniently, but they could get a sentence of 15 years in prison if thier caught with one. When did we start passing laws in Iraq? And the ghastly irony of all ironies is I can hear the voices of Tighty Rightie paranoids nattering on about “Well, you know, when tyrants want to set up dictatorships, the first thing they do is round up all the guns!” And doesn’t everybody an his cousing own a gun in Iraq? Last I heard, they had more guns per capita than Dallas! ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/7 "2003-11-18T06:30:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* Last I heard, they had more guns per capita than Dallas! \*\* Yes, indeed!! Now, if we were forced to choose between the Grizzly Win Mag or the semi-automatic rifle - we’ll, we’d be hard pressed to make that decision. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/8 "2003-11-18T06:42:02Z")
Well, down in Waco we never went in for the fancier weapons. Just wanted to be sure we had something with enough “stopping power”, in case we get ambushed by a wooly mammoth. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/9 "2003-11-18T12:15:34Z")
Ha! It’s just like I’ve always said - put any army in the world in a situation like we’re dealing with in the Territories, and it’ll end up acting as bad as we are, if not worse. I mean, you Americans have been there for what, nine months, and you’re already acting like Givati in the Nablus casba! At least with us, it took over 30 years to get that far. And all this _before_ Iraqis start blowing themselves up in American cities. I shudder to thing how the U.S. military will act when THAT starts to happen. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/10 "2003-11-18T13:58:54Z")
(Shrug) Exactly as I expected. Dunno why this comes as a surprise to anyone. A military dictatorship is a military dictatorship. Some are more benevolent than others, but at the end of the day, they get things done by shooting people and forcing the issue with tanks and barbed wire. What didja all expect, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/11 "2003-11-18T14:09:16Z")
If you’re interested, now would be a perfect time to check out the philosophy of nihilism. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/12 "2003-11-18T14:29:02Z")
There is a some exaggeration going on here. Tikrit is not “just like Gaza” Although ID cards are required for residents to move in and out of the are, they are allowed to move in and out of the area. The Tikrit area is almost certainly where Saddam is hiding and US soldiers would very much like to catch him. Saddam’s hometown area benefitted from his rule while other Iraqis were starved, tortured, and being gassed. While this makes no excuse for any unprofessional behavior towards its residents, it should be kept in mind just why many of the residents are unhappy. The Sunnis are not going to benefit from democracy in Iraq where Shia are the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/13 "2003-11-18T14:47:26Z")
Good thing the US did it and not Baathists cooperating with Islamic terrorists, otherwise we’d have to reassess our whole outrage situation. **Sailor** just hates America. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/14 "2003-11-18T15:01:01Z")
agreeing with that **Beagle** He’s french. And I think he _loves_ to write this. It’s bad enough - if true. Don’t go revelling in it sailor. That’s pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/15 "2003-11-18T15:14:08Z")
One of us doesn’t get it. I think its you. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/16 "2003-11-18T15:45:27Z")
Slight hijack for some “unfiltered” news from Iraq, via [Faux News](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103386,00.html) > [@](#): > > much of Baghdad has been left with only brief, 10-15 minute periods of electricity in the last three days. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/17 "2003-11-18T16:54:12Z")
**elucidator** Nope. I think I finally got it. It took me a while, but sailor’s posts are full of hatred towards the US. Do you mind if I take his messages with a grain of salt? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/18 "2003-11-18T17:00:19Z")
> [@](#): > > **"Hey, this is just like Gaza, isn’t it?" a fiery-eyed young Iraqi policeman shouted at us from behind the chest-high, three-layer wire coils which separate his home from the rest of the surrounding dead-flat Iraqi landscape, Sunni Triangle heartland. "We’re not happy. Not happy!"** Now that’s funny. The Tikrit area seems to have been walled-up, fortified, self-contained etc. for a long time. “He built two palaces, the largest a sand-coloured riot of pillars, domes and colonnades. It boasts the colonnades of Buckingham Palace, the domes of a great mosque and the faintly sinister, hunched appearance of a nuclear bunker. Miles of razor wire surround this temple of self-glorification.” [http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/10/1049567808457.html](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/10/1049567808457.html) “Still a narrow-laned, grimy town, Tikrit today is home to massive compounds for Saddam and his family. Double layers of walls with razor wire and guard towers ring one sprawling compound, part palace and part medieval fort.” [http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2002/10/16/f171.raw.html](http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2002/10/16/f171.raw.html) Razor wire is fine if you want to keep the unsavory elements _out_, you see, and that’s pretty much what the villagers say here: > [@](#): > > US soldiers moved in before dawn yesterday to seal off al-Ouja, outside Tikrit, with razor wire and setting up checkpoints on all roads into it. > > All 3500 residents of the village, a cluster of homes among orchards of pears and pomegranates about 10 kilometres south of Tikrit, were ordered to register for identity cards. > > The tactic, reminiscent of methods used by Israeli defence forces in the West Bank, is intended to impede the movement of insurgents. > > A military spokesman said: “This is an effort to protect the majority of the population, the people who want to get on with their lives.” > > Many of the inhabitants are clansmen and distant relatives of Saddam Hussein but there was no visible resistance to the American operation and people lined up quietly to register for their ID cards. > > “I chose right in coming here,” said Ahmed al-Naseri, who said he was a cousin of the former Iraqi dictator. “We need the safety and we need freedom.” > > Ali Sherif al-Naseri, another self-described Saddam relative, said people had no choice but to comply with the American orders. > > “It may not be totally fair but it’s a good idea,” he said. > > The sealing of al-Ouja followed leaks by senior officials in Washington that Saddam Hussein may be playing a lead role in co-ordinating attacks against American forces. > > [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/01/1067597205379.html?from=storyrhs](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/01/1067597205379.html?from=storyrhs) What would really be “fair” is if we took all the stuff down and let Saddam’s relatives fend for themselves. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Alessan_ > **I mean, you Americans have been there for what, nine months, and you’re already acting like Givati in the Nablus casba! At least with us, it took over 30 years to get that far.** And one supersized Fuck You to you, **Alessan.** ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/19 "2003-11-18T17:16:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gum \* > sailor’s posts are full of hatred towards the US. But, enough about me. This thread is not about me, it is about the news reported by several agencies and media of the barbarities being committed in Iraq by US forces. You have anything to say about _that_? Or the best you can do is attack me for reporting it? By the way, I am not French (not that it would make any difference, I have lived in several countries and consider myself a citizen of the world) and I do not hate America. The reason I condemn these things is precisely because this is no supposed to be the kind of thing America does nor the kind of thing any civilized country should condone. I do not _hate_ any country or any people. My allegiance is not to any country but to some basic principles. I believe humans are pretty much the same everywhere and I believe in Human Rights for all. I also believe in freedom and human dignity and similar things which the USA and western countries are supposed to stand for. When the USA stands for that I am proud to defend her and I have done so around the world for many years in the face of many anti-American expressions. I hope the day can come soon when I can defend the actions of the government of the USA but what they are doing now is indefensible. My quarrel is not with the USA nor with the people of the USA. It is with very specific actions of the government. I condemn them as I think most Americans do too. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855/20 "2003-11-18T17:32:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*But, enough about me. This thread is not about me, it is about the news reported by several agencies and media of the barbarities being committed in Iraq by US forces. \*\* Well perhaps you could better explain why controlling the flow of people into and out of an area where Saddam is known to be hiding is barbaric? Saddam’s method of dealing with an insurgency would have been to level the entire town or village or perhaps just to gas it. I don’t think the US really has this “barbarity” thing down yet. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-turns-tikrit-into-iraqs-west-bank/213855.md?page=2)