# USA vs. Canada Soccer...6 seconds by goalie: BS Call?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691
**Category:** The Game Room
**Created:** [August 7, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691 "2012-08-07T03:07:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/21 "2012-08-07T14:53:32Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#):
>
> Stalling is getting to be as bad as diving in soccer.
One of the things I find noteworthy aboiut women’s soccer is how little they dive as opposed to the men’s game. There were no egregious dives at all during yesterday’s game, which would NEVER happen in a men’s World Cup game. The men act like girls, but the women act like women.
As to the officiating, it was terrible, and it’s noteworthy that not long before all this a preposterously obvious hand ball, one that looked comparatively quite intentional, was committed in plain view of the ref right in front of the U.S. goal by Megan Rapinoe. No call. NBC got the team in the finals they wanted, I guess. But given the history of Olympics officiating (boxing, anyone?) nobody can be surprised.
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### Author:  [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/22 "2012-08-07T16:46:23Z")
Yeah. People complaining about the refs when their team loses? Not surprising.
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### Author:  [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/23 "2012-08-07T17:31:24Z")
Did you guys watch last year’s Women’s World Cup? There were three notably bad calls _against_ the U.S. from the Australian ref:
1. Red card given to American defender in the box. Replays showed no questionable contact at all, nor denial of a clear scoring opportunity, not even enough for a penalty, but:
2. Penalty saved by Hope Solo, but pulled back due to supposed encroachment. Replays showed no evidence of this, either from Solo or the American side. Second attempt by a different player scores.
3. Goal scored by Brazil off a clearly offside play.
These things happen. #2 was the one that was the most baffling, #1 and #3 aren’t that uncommon. Luckily, the U.S. went on to tie the game in extra time (at 120+2’!) and win the shoot-out.
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/24 "2012-08-07T18:10:01Z")
The only questionable call was the delay call. The Canadian handball was actually two handballs - the first deflected the ball into the second player who also handled the ball - and either one of them fit the description of deliberate handling withing the box. Deliberate, mind you, is a different thing than intentional.
Rapinoe’s no-call was correct as well, as her arm never moved from her body. That is the difference in the rule - both Canadian’s arms had moved away from the body and were in motion when hit by the ball. Rapinoe’s wasn’t. The ball hitting the hand or arm of an opponent is not sufficient for a handball call.
The delay call was also correct, albeit unorthodox. The keeper had been warned, and a replay I saw this morning showed that it took 11 seconds for the keeper to kick the ball away after she had established control. That’s nearly double the allotted time.
I’m a big fan of delay of game calls in soccer. If I were a ref, and the wall, as it does every time, lines up four yards away from from the spot of the foul, I’d start handing out yellow cards like Halloween candy until every one of those fuckers was ten yards away. A player is being substituted for and he turns his back to the sideline and starts a microscopic examination of his socks? Yellow, then red after a few more seconds.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/25 "2012-08-07T18:33:59Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#):
>
> Rapinoe’s no-call was correct as well, as her arm never moved from her body. That is the difference in the rule - both Canadian’s arms had moved away from the body and were in motion when hit by the ball. Rapinoe’s wasn’t. The ball hitting the hand or arm of an opponent is not sufficient for a handball call.
Rapinoe’s arm was extended away from her body at the time the ball struck her forearm; did you see the correct replay?
Looking at the replay, I simply do not see how it was not deliberate in the case of Rapinoe, who had a clear view of the ball, had her arm extended, and struck the ball away from her own goal, but deliberate in the case of the first Canadian to touch that shot (surely you can’t say the second one was deliberate.) If the Canadian handball was deliberate - and right in front of the goal I would argue that it should be considered deliberate unless the referee can clearly, unambiguously determine it was not - so was Rapinoe’s. Both should have been called. I admit the Laws of the Game aren’t super clear on the matter, but it’s silly to assert the Canadian handball was more deliberate than Rapinoe’s. Whether the IFK should have happened at all is another matter.
To get away from this specific game, I’ve always been of the opinion that the rule should be clarified to eliminate intent, but that’s just me.
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### Author:  [@thirtyeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirtyeyes)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/26 "2012-08-07T21:17:39Z")
I understand that the GK was warned AND that the American players were counting aloud for most of the match. Wambach says she counted aloud 5 to 7 times.
Alex Morgan, “But it was blatant. It was obvious. It was at least 10 times that she was over six seconds and we’re not talking about seven seconds or eight. It was 10 seconds, 15 seconds, and we were calling it out loud. The referee was aware of all that so it wasn’t something that she decided to call randomly.”
Kind of funny, right. The GK was holding for 15 seconds or more and then she probably speeds up to 10 seconds and gets called on it.
On the other hand, I think the hand ball rule or law needs a bit of tightening up. Not sure I agree with that call, but an instant replay rule/procedure might help out in such cases.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/27 "2012-08-07T21:52:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> …To get away from this specific game, I’ve always been of the opinion that the rule should be clarified to eliminate intent, but that’s just me.
It’s actually pretty clear in the rules: Ball to arm or arm to ball.
Other than that it falls on the ref’s interpretation. And I don’t see how you can change _that_.
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### Author:  [@manta1969](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manta1969)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/28 "2012-08-07T22:01:26Z")
Why didn’t Solo get penalized for taking more than 6 seconds multiple times? Because the Canadian ladies weren’t counting down like Abby Wombach and bullying the ref into making the call. It’s a shame, it was a good game up until that point.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/29 "2012-08-07T22:06:16Z")
> [@manta1969](#):
>
> Why didn’t Solo get penalized for taking more than 6 seconds multiple times? Because the Canadian ladies weren’t counting down like Abby Wombach and bullying the ref into making the call. It’s a shame, it was a good game up until that point.
Simply put, the US was never ahead. The only reason something like that becomes an issue, ever, is when the team that’s ahead is stalling, trying to burn time off the clock without risk. Well, they got burned, and the likely reason is that just a short time before they had a three-goal explosion which made it abundantly obvious that Canada was stalling to keep the US from getting another quick one.
You can do virtually anything as long as you’re not obvious. That was obvious, and it cost them.
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### Author:  [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/30 "2012-08-07T22:17:58Z")
Can we get a cite for the whole, “The keeper was warned” thing? Because I’ve already posted a cite that says that she wasn’t.
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### Author:  [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/31 "2012-08-07T22:28:30Z")
Ok, here’s a better one:
[http://www.cbc.ca/sports/opinion/olympics2012/2012/08/referees-calls-beyond-comprehension.html](http://www.cbc.ca/sports/opinion/olympics2012/2012/08/referees-calls-beyond-comprehension.html)
> [@](#):
>
> McLeod would later describe her disbelief to the assembled press, saying she had only received a prior warning from the referee’s assistant at the start of the second half - and even then, she explained, it was just a vague reference to keeping the game going.
Sending the referee’s assistant to tell the keeper to “keep the game moving” prior to the second half, and not mentioning the “or I’ll make a call that is practically never made and award a free kick” is not good refereeing.
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### Author:  [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/32 "2012-08-07T22:29:48Z")
> [@RedFury](#):
>
> It’s actually pretty clear in the rules: Ball to arm or arm to ball.
>
> Other than that it falls on the ref’s interpretation. And I don’t see how you can change _that_.
I don’t think the rules are very clear, actually. Unless there is some rule book that I am not aware of. FIFA’s own site has this to say under “Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct”, regarding handball:
_A direct free kick is awarded if a player […] handles the ball deliberately_
That’s it.
The question of “ball to hand” does crop up in the separate _Interpretation of the Laws of the Game_:
_Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement_
Still a bit vague and imprecise. I guess there are official referee guidelines out there that attempt to further nail down what “deliberate” actually means with respect to handball. But it’s a knotty problem, one that is apparently beyond the legal minds of football’s governing body.
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### Author:  [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/33 "2012-08-07T22:32:55Z")
> [@Rysto](#):
>
> Can we get a cite for the whole, “The keeper was warned” thing? Because I’ve already posted a cite that says that she wasn’t.
The [ref](http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/story/2012/08/07/olympics-us-canada-soccer-ref.html) says she was.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/34 "2012-08-07T22:43:01Z")
> [@Ximenean](#):
>
> I don’t think the rules are very clear, actually. Unless there is some rule book that I am not aware of. FIFA’s own site has this to say under “Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct”, regarding handball:
>
> _A direct free kick is awarded if a player […] handles the ball deliberately_
>
> That’s it.
> The question of “ball to hand” does crop up in the separate _Interpretation of the Laws of the Game_:
>
> _Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
> • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
> • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
> • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement_
>
> Still a bit vague and imprecise. I guess there are official referee guidelines out there that attempt to further nail down what “deliberate” actually means with respect to handball. But it’s a knotty problem, one that is apparently beyond the legal minds of football’s governing body.
One is a subset of the other, thus I think my original claim stands. That said, I know not of any “official guidelines” that make further distinctions. Which is further enhanced by the fact that said calls are hardly even.
So, again, it boils down to interpretation by the ref of the original rule. Has never been evenly applied and doubt it ever will. Something us footie fans apparently must live with…
Though personally I feel an instant replay would make calls much more fair…and not just in that case – offside calls, card-carrying fouls, ghost goals etc. FIFA needs a changing of the (old) guard hard as that may be.
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### Author:  [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/35 "2012-08-07T22:48:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#):
>
> One is a subset of the other, thus I think my original claim stands. That said, I know not of any “official guidelines” that make further distinctions. Which is further enhanced by the fact that said calls are hardly even.
>
> So, again, it boils down to interpretation by the ref of the original rule. Has never been evenly applied and doubt it ever will. Something us footie fans apparently must live with…
>
> Though personally I feel an instant replay would make calls much more fair…and not just in that case – offside calls, card-carrying fouls, ghost goals etc. FIFA needs a changing of the (old) guard hard as that may be.
Well, no, your point doesn’t stand because having an arm in an unnatural position is a well accepted grounds for calling a handball regardless of whether the hand is moving towards the ball.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/36 "2012-08-07T22:55:57Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#):
>
> Well, no, your point doesn’t stand because having an arm in an unnatural position is a well accepted grounds for calling a handball regardless of whether the hand is moving towards the ball.
Pardon me, an “unnatural position” is still a ref’s _subjective_ call – meaning whether he thinks it’s “deliberate” or not.
Carry on.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/37 "2012-08-07T23:10:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> A hand ball is called when a player (excluding the goal keeper when he is in the box) intentionally touches the ball with his hand or any part of his arm from shoulder to the finger tips.
>
> This means that if a player touches the ball unintentionally, it is not a hand ball.
>
> Often times you will see people yelling at a ref for not calling a hand ball when it was unintentional. These people are wrong.
>
> Sometimes the ref will call unintentional hand balls. This is because he either does not know the rule or is just too scared to look like he missed a call.
>
> Now, many would take this page a little too far and argue that they did not commit a hand ball when they did, saying that they did it by accident.
>
> Here is a good way to tell whether it was intentional of not: if the player could have avoided it in any way, then it was a hand ball. If there was nothing that the player could have done to prevent touching the ball with his hand, then it was not intentional.
>
> **However, I cannot stress enough that it is up to the ref, and whatever the ref says (whether it be the best or worst call in the world) is what you should abide by.**
From here: [History Of Soccer.](http://www.history-of-soccer.org/hand-ball.html)
Without looking up numerous cites in Spanish, I am satisfied with this explanation: ref’s discretion. As has always been.
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### Author:  [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/38 "2012-08-07T23:57:34Z")
Seems to me that there was gamesmanship on both sides (Canada trying to stall and U.S. counting down the possessions). Call it cleverness or shenanigans or whatever, but the U.S. got the better of it.
From the NBC website:
> [@](#):
>
> But McLeod pushed the rule to the extreme. The first time she caught the ball Monday night — off a deflected header — she held it for 17 seconds before punting it away. A couple of minutes later, she controlled it for 16 seconds. There was another 16-second possession later in the half as she cradled the ball, gave it a bounce, walked forward and directed traffic…
>
> With Canada leading at 76:36 on the official clock, McLeod fell to the ground making a two-handed catch of a corner kick by Rapinoe. McLeod took three to four seconds to get up, still cradling the ball. She started to run forward, then slowed to a walk. At 76:44, she started to wave her players forward. She bounced the ball once, then started to punt it at 76:47.
>
> “I had gotten to 10 seconds counting out loud next to the referee,” Wambach said. “And at 10 seconds she blew the whistle, and I think it was a good call. Yes, it’s uncharacteristic for that call to be made in a soccer game, but the rules are the rules.”
>
> “Here’s the thing — we needed a goal,” Wambach added. “They’re trying to waste time, and I’m trying to speed it up. You can say it’s gamesmanship, you can say it’s smart, but I’m a competitor and I want to get the ball back at our feet.”
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/39 "2012-08-08T00:12:17Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#):
>
> Well, they got burned, and the likely reason is that just a short time before they had a three-goal explosion which made it abundantly obvious that Canada was stalling to keep the US from getting another quick one.
Are we talking about the same game? What three-goal explosion occurred before the penalty? It was 3-2 Canada at the time, and the sequence of goals had been Canada-USA-Canada-USA-Canada.
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### Author:  [@azraiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azraiel)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-canada-soccer-6-seconds-by-goalie-bs-call/630691/40 "2012-08-08T00:44:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> As to the officiating, it was terrible, and it’s noteworthy that not long before all this a preposterously obvious hand ball, one that looked comparatively quite intentional, was committed in plain view of the ref right in front of the U.S. goal by Megan Rapinoe. No call. NBC got the team in the finals they wanted, I guess. But given the history of Olympics officiating (boxing, anyone?) nobody can be surprised.
No, I want your honest opinion on how those grapes would have tasted if you’d been able to reach them.
So your evidence for “terrible” officiating is one missed call? When there are multiple missed calls in any given match? Or do you have others?
The delay call was quite correct. Would you be incensed if a team was whistled for a pass back? It’s a well-known rule and the six-second call is not, but they stem from the same impetus–not allowing the leading team to soak time.
I cannot see what in the world was wrong with the handball call. The defender clearly put her arms out perpendicular to her body in an attempt to reduce the target area. It doesn’t matter if she reached or not, she positioned her arms illegally between the striker and the goal and she was called for it.
Granted, I can’t watch the entire match (I don’t have NBC). But between the highlights I’ve watched and the write-ups I’ve read (multiple British, Canadian, and American), this seems much ado about nothing. I’ve read comments about payouts, conspiracies, your own about NBC getting what it wanted, etc.
What I haven’t seen is a single convincing example of a “bad call.” Please provide one (a true bad call, not a missed call).
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