# USA vs. Mexico **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265 "2011-04-21T18:50:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/41 "2011-04-22T02:32:04Z")
I’m not saying thall everyone who follows the Protestant work ethic is Protestant, I’m just referring to it by its common name. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/42 "2011-04-22T02:53:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I wonder if poor in the US passes for middle class standards of living in other countries. There are plenty of “poor” with TVs, with cars even. If TV’s and cars are produced in enough numbers to be cheap, the poor may still have them. Poverty is about lack of power, opportunity, and autonomy, more than about material culture. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Couldnt it be simply explained by the fact that > 1)Most of the pop of the US is of European origin, and a few of the basic principles for having an efficient political system were easier to implement in the States than in Mexico? When the Europeans came to the US, they were fleeing “divine” kings in Europe. They brought their fairy tales full of princesses, their racism, & their (to coin a phrase) class neurosis. Today Americans lionize the rich and hate the poor. I don’t expect Americans of European descent are as a rule culturally or intellectually prepared for a progressive democracy even now. > [@](#): > > 2)the colonial power that handled Mexico wasnt in the best of shape itself, and it made the country lag for a long time (and didnt leave the country with very solid political or even economical systems?). I think this is probably fair. Spain maintained a sort of kleptocracy in the Americas, & eventually saw it break into local quasi-nation-states, rather like Rome before, or the kingdom of Charlemagne. (Not that Charlemagne was a kleptocrat. Agh, too many half-parallels.) > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > BTW, Canada wasnt founded by Brits, and it certainly does better than Mexico, so I dont think it is a British vs Spanish thing rather than a Euro vs Natives thing (think Israel). The derelict state of the Spanish colonial empire certainly didnt improve things. Canada was under the protection of the English Crown from 1763 on. And while Canada as such was French, Newfoundland and BC were “founded by Brits” and grafted on. > [@pinguin](#): > > Never accepted Indians? I don’t think so. At least, not as an absolute. Pocahontas, Sacagawea aren’t just an exception. And if you want to see assimilation you must look into Canada, where Meti are quite common, and Canada was ruled by Britain a lot longer than the U.S. > > By the way, people forget some strange facts that appear in American history once in a while. For instance, Sequoyah printed a newspaper in Cherokee at the 1820s! And the newspaper was printed and read in a “white” town! Who was the public that read Cherokee in a white town, I wonder. > > In any case, it is true that Spaniards accepted Indians a lot more, but it is also true they considered Indians like small children, that should be educated in Christ by charity. Métis are French-Canadian, though. And being treated like small children is better than being treated like Grendel. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/43 "2011-04-22T02:56:53Z")
Also, Qin/Curtis, you’re repeating self-congratulatory stereotypes put forth by Protestantism-boosting Anglos in the last two centuries. I suspect the lionization of the Protestant work ethic suffers from perspective bias. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/44 "2011-04-22T03:02:22Z")
incidentally, I suspect that **pinguin** is forgetting the role of German immigrants in the formation of Chilean national character as we now know it. I don’t know how disciplined were Spanish soldiers back in the day, but in 19th century Germans played an outsized role in Chilean industry and the military. Draft-based military can have quite an impact on psychology of generations of men subject to it, for good or ill. And late 19th century military of Chile seems to have been well-run and popular, especially thanks to their 1871 successes against Peru and Bolivia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/45 "2011-04-22T03:19:31Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > And with respect to Hispanic culture less oriented to work, I think that is a prejudice that is not based on reality. The fact is a Hispanic worker here in Latin America has to work twice as much as in the U.S. to get half the standard of living. We work like crazy. No wonder that Mexican workers in the U.S. building industry have a prestige. I know that’s true, why else would anyone pick up help from the parking lot at Home Depot; but from here it seems to Americans, rightly or wrongly, that for some reason Mexicans don’t work very hard **in Mexico,** obviously they don’t, because Mexico is such a shithole. Of course, there are many parts of the world where people break their backs working and yet remain poor all their lives. Perhaps the “Protestant work ethic” is merely an unquestioned and untrue cultural assumption that hard work will always be enough to make things better. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/46 "2011-04-22T03:30:28Z")
as the saying goes, “work smarter not harder”. Or, be like the Germans and do both simultaneously. Then you will not need to make any “assumptions” about things getting better since everything will be great already in a country like Germany. Of course, if you would rather prefer the sort of leaders who put up big heroic murals and battle evil schemes of various nefarious capitalists, then you end up with a country more like Mexico. Or maybe like certain other country in the Western Hemisphere where heroic murals are coming into vogue as well. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/47 "2011-04-22T03:39:40Z")
I don’t think there’s any ethnic or cultural group that has a monopoly on a work ethic. Every group is going to have some ambitious go-getters and every group is going to have lazy bums. The United States has benefited from being a desirable destination for immigrants (this is part of the arable land theory). If you were an ambitious villager in some country looking to get ahead, you would think about going to America, the proverbial land of opportunity. America is a country full of people whose ancestors were willing to make the leap to something better. We should still be encouraging this. I figure if there’s a guy in some little Mexican village who’s willing to walk a thousand miles to get work in America, then that’s a guy who we want in America. What makes America great is we got all the poor people from other countries who wanted to stop being poor. Those other countries kept all the poor people who were willing to let it slide. (It works for smart people too. America has a great university system that attracts students from all over the world to come here and study. And what happens is about half of the foreign students who come to America for a college education end up staying in America. It’s like we’re stealing the smartest people from every other country on Earth.) ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/48 "2011-04-22T03:41:10Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > as the saying goes, “work smarter not harder”. Or, be like the Germans and do both simultaneously. Then you will not need to make any “assumptions” about things getting better since everything will be great already in a country like Germany.. Germany grows slower than Brazil, Chile or Colombia. :rolleyes: Yes, Germany is a rich country with a high standard of living, so they can take it easy now. It is harder to get from poor to rich, though, at least a country is lucky the get oil or some easy money. However, in the long term it pays to work hard. It is nothing genetical, but is a matter of mentality of the people. And people learn and change. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/49 "2011-04-22T03:56:04Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > incidentally, I suspect that **pinguin** is forgetting the role of German immigrants in the formation of Chilean national character as we now know it. There were a fair number of [German-Mexicans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_immigration_to_Mexico) as well. Which gave us the great glory of [Negro Modelo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negra_Modelo#Negra_Modelo), one of my favorite everyday beers ( not that I drink beer every day 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/50 "2011-04-22T04:00:56Z")
Yes, there are many Germans, and German descendants in Latin America, particularly in Brazil and Argentina. And Germans are master beer makers. They make locals to love beer, sausages and kuchen. But you are wrong if you believe Germans changed society at a larger scale. On the contrary, they addapted to ours. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/51 "2011-04-22T04:04:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Cultural factors may play a role. Hispanic culture in general is less oriented toward work, industry, and so on than the rather famous “Protestant work ethic” of Anglo-Saxons and Germans and those culturally influenced by them. I’d reply to this but I’m just so sleepy… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/52 "2011-04-22T05:19:00Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I’d reply to this but I’m just so sleepy… Maybe you could have your cousin Speedy Mcnally respond. I hear he’s the fastest poster in all of Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/53 "2011-04-22T05:56:43Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > Or maybe like certain other country in the Western Hemisphere where heroic murals are coming into vogue as well. Erotic murals? Where can I get one of those? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/54 "2011-04-22T07:51:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I know that’s true, why else would anyone pick up help from the parking lot at Home Depot; but from here it seems to Americans, rightly or wrongly, that for some reason Mexicans don’t work very hard **in Mexico,** obviously they don’t, because Mexico is such a shithole. A new OECD study just came out showing that Mexicans work the longest hours of all the countries in the study. > **[Who works the longest hours? Mexicans, says OECD Report.](https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2011/0413/Who-works-the-longest-hours-Mexicans-says-OECD-Report)** > > Mexicans work an average of 10 hours a day, the most of 29 industrialized nations studied in a new report released Tuesday by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/55 "2011-04-22T10:50:18Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > as the saying goes, “work smarter not harder”. Or, be like the Germans and do both simultaneously. Then you will not need to make any “assumptions” about things getting better since everything will be great already in a country like Germany. Ever study economics? Compensation in a free market is derived not from labor input, but from price negotiated. Quality of work gives you something to negotiate with. So does quantity of production (though this is dangerous; you may undercut your sector’s price & lose your job). But restraint of trade also gives you something to negotiate with, as does intimidation. Market economics is all about negotiation. Having the guns on your side is useful. Expecting the client to spontaneously respect the wonderfulness of the work you put in is a path to disappointment. This is even more true in the anarchic realm of trade between nations. > [@](#): > > Of course, if you would rather prefer the sort of leaders who put up big heroic murals and battle evil schemes of various nefarious capitalists, then you end up with a country more like Mexico. Or maybe like certain other country in the Western Hemisphere where heroic murals are coming into vogue as well. Oh, no, save us from agitprop! Wait, are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/56 "2011-04-22T11:27:10Z")
I’d guess it’s because a significant part of the U.S. economy is being used to support crime and corruption in Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/57 "2011-04-22T11:58:21Z")
You can see a similar effect riding the El train in Chicago out to Oak Park. You cross from the Austin section of Chicago into Oak Park and you say “What happened?” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/58 "2011-04-22T12:42:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think there’s any ethnic or cultural group that has a monopoly on a work ethic. Every group is going to have some ambitious go-getters and every group is going to have lazy bums. > > The United States has benefited from being a desirable destination for immigrants (this is part of the arable land theory). If you were an ambitious villager in some country looking to get ahead, you would think about going to America, the proverbial land of opportunity. America is a country full of people whose ancestors were willing to make the leap to something better. > > We should still be encouraging this. I figure if there’s a guy in some little Mexican village who’s willing to walk a thousand miles to get work in America, then that’s a guy who we want in America. > > What makes America great is we got all the poor people from other countries who wanted to stop being poor. Those other countries kept all the poor people who were willing to let it slide. > > (It works for smart people too. America has a great university system that attracts students from all over the world to come here and study. And what happens is about half of the foreign students who come to America for a college education end up staying in America. It’s like we’re stealing the smartest people from every other country on Earth.) Sure, we want that guy, but if you somehow kept enough guys like him in Mexico, don’t you think those motivated guys would make Mexico better, rather than bailing to El Norte and leaving Mexico worse off? I keep thinking that the amount of blood, sweat and tears spent by our Mexican immigrant community doing inconsequential things like mowing lawns, landscaping, dishwashing and other frivolous grunt work, could be put to better use improving Mexico. I’m not trying to bash immigrants- far from it, but I wonder if the ease of immigration means that many Mexicans don’t bother improving things at home and just come north. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/59 "2011-04-22T16:33:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > A new OECD study just came out showing that Mexicans work the longest hours of all the countries in the study. > > [Who works the longest hours? Mexicans, says OECD Report. - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2011/0413/Who-works-the-longest-hours-Mexicans-says-OECD-Report) And yet Mexico remains a shithole. (Must be, or Mexicans would not be so eager to leave it.) Why **is** that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265/60 "2011-04-22T16:35:13Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > as the saying goes, “work smarter not harder”. Or, be like the Germans and do both simultaneously. Then you will not need to make any “assumptions” about things getting better since everything will be great already in a country like Germany. > > Of course, if you would rather prefer the sort of leaders who put up big heroic murals and battle evil schemes of various nefarious capitalists, then you end up with a country more like Mexico. Or maybe like certain other country in the Western Hemisphere where heroic murals are coming into vogue as well. N.B.: Venezuela was **always** like Mexico, in the ways to which you are referring, **before** Chavez became president. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usa-vs-mexico/579265.md?page=4)