# Usage/meaning question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 24, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318 "2010-12-24T22:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/1 "2010-12-24T22:48:00Z")
Two statements: 1. The bakery on the south side of the street sells ten times more doughnuts than the bakery on the north side of the street. 2. The bakery on the south side of the street sells ten times as many doughnuts as the bakery on the north side of the street. Do these two sentences mean the same thing? Is one correct and the other one not? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![TheChileanBlob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thechileanblob/32/435_2.png) [@TheChileanBlob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheChileanBlob)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/2 "2010-12-24T22:52:52Z")
Here’s my WAG: the Northside bakery sells 10 doughnuts. The Southside bakery sells 10 times as many, or 100. But, the Southside bakery sells 10 times _more_, means the original ten _plus_ 100 more. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/3 "2010-12-24T23:27:02Z")
It would be a good idea not to use sentence 1. It’s not because the grammar is bad or because it doesn’t have a meaning, but the meaning is confusing. Suppose the bakery on the north side of the street sells 10 donuts. Clearly sentence 2 means that the bakery on the south side of the street sells 100 donuts, since 100 is 10 times 10. On the other hand, the most likely meaning of sentence 1 is that the south-side bakery sells 110 donuts, since that is 10 times 10 (= 100) more than the 10 donuts that the north-side bakery sells. However, some people will understand it as saying that the south-side bakery sells 100 donuts, since they will interpret it as saying that the amount of donuts sold by the south-side bakery is 10 times as much as the amount of donuts sold by the north-side bakery. So stick with using sentence 2, since that’s less confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/4 "2010-12-25T01:05:07Z")
I agree completely with **Wendell**. “Ten times more than” is ambiguous, or at least, not everybody is going to interpret it the same way. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/5 "2010-12-25T04:12:27Z")
Yes, sentence #1 is ambiguous; stick with sentence #2. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_is_the_new_Analog)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/6 "2010-12-25T05:01:56Z")
I disagree that sentence #1 is ambiguous. It is very specific…but people tend to miss what it’s actually saying, and assume it means the same as #2. 10 times more than x is (10\*x) + x, which is (11 \* x). What other meaning could it actually have? -D/a ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/7 "2010-12-25T06:15:25Z")
It’s not that sentence 1 is ambiguous, as long as you think very carefully about it. The problem is that many people won’t think carefully about it. People are less likely to mistake the meaning of sentence 2. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/8 "2010-12-25T16:06:17Z")
> [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](#): > > I disagree that sentence #1 is ambiguous. It is very specific..but people tend to miss what it’s actually saying, and assume it means the same as #2. > 10 times more than x is (10\*x) + x, which is (11 \* x). What other meaning could it actually have? > -D/a The fact that so many other posters think it ambiguous means that it is ambiguous. Yes, it ought to have the meaning you suggest, but just doesn’t do it clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/9 "2010-12-25T16:32:54Z")
The two sentences are equivalent in standard colloquial English. If you had either of them separately you wouldn’t think twice about it. You would read the relationship as 100 is to 10. Putting them together is probably more confusing that encountering either separately. People are looking for ways to differentiate them. I find it impossible to imagine anyone reading either sentence as 110 instead of 100 if they were buried in any ordinary prose. Both are correct colloquial English. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/10 "2010-12-26T01:34:12Z")
The first is ambiguous because the reading of “ten times more” to mean “more, in that there are ten times as many” is perfectly valid colloquially. It’s what I normally would assume the speaker meant in practically all situations. This is much the same as the fact that, colloquially, “irregardless” means the same as “regardless”. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/11 "2010-12-26T02:29:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The two sentences are equivalent in standard colloquial English. … Only Madison Ave has made it so. My computer is twice as fast as yours. Only 100% faster?. 200% as fast? No, it’s 200% faster. But, you’re correct. I recently saw a Scientific American article which incorporated the same concept regarding? and thru up my hands. I write it off to inflation. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/12 "2010-12-26T06:36:17Z")
I can’t see how one could possibly interpret the first sentence to mean 110. 10 times x is 10x. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/13 "2010-12-26T22:33:08Z")
The sentences are distinct. The first refers to a measurement, which can include fractional amounts. The second refers to a numerical quantity, which must be whole integers. You could say “I had ten times as much applesauce”. But you could not say “I had ten times as many applesauce.” Applesauce is not a discrete item (we’re not considering containers of applesauce here). Donuts are discrete items, therefore you can have as much and as many. On the other hand, although the sentences have different meanings, they do contain the same amount of donuts. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/14 "2010-12-27T01:05:29Z")
You’re overparsing. You are right when you say that if they were separated the terms can be applied to different items and therefore be distinct. But they are not separated and they are both being applied to the same discreet, countable, integer items. In context they are identical. You’re trying to apply definitions out of context. That trick never works. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/15 "2010-12-27T01:29:18Z")
The meaning of both sentences is quite clear: The bakery on the South side has much better donuts. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/16 "2010-12-27T01:47:08Z")
I disagree with most people. Nobody is going to stop and do the maths. And even if they, do, who cares? The point is both accurately describe a bakery which sells many more doughnuts than the other. Noboy cares if it’s 9,10, or 11 times as many. “Oh dear, I thought they sold 10 times a smany, but it’s only 9 - I’ll go back to the crap bakery!” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/17 "2010-12-27T02:07:14Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Only Madison Ave has made it so. > > My computer is twice as fast as yours. Only 100% faster?. 200% as fast? No, it’s 200% faster. Yup, Madison Avenue can do some weird and wondrous things with the meaning of words. Like promising that a new toilet bowl cleaner can give you three times less germs in the bowl. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/18 "2010-12-27T02:10:04Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > I can’t see how one could possibly interpret the first sentence to mean 110. 10 times x is 10x. But 10 times _more than_ x is 11x. And don’t get me started on “a dozen and a half” donuts. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-meaning-question/565318/19 "2010-12-27T02:44:24Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > The sentences are distinct. The first refers to a measurement, which can include fractional amounts. The second refers to a numerical quantity, which must be whole integers. > > You could say “I had ten times as much applesauce”. But you could not say “I had ten times as many applesauce.” Applesauce is not a discrete item (we’re not considering containers of applesauce here). Donuts are discrete items, therefore you can have as much and as many. > > On the other hand, although the sentences have different meanings, they do contain the same amount of donuts. Oh! \ So it’s like the difference between “less” and “fewer”? Brilliant!