# Usage of Japanese "-san" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815 "2004-06-30T02:05:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/1 "2004-06-30T02:05:44Z")
Most of my knowledge of Japanese culture comes from watching _Shogun_ and _Iron Chef_, so I know that it’s polite to add “-san” to someone’s name, and its considered insulting to leave it off. However, the rule doesn’t seem to be consistent – for example, when announcing the winner of Iron Chef, Chairman Kaga almost never uses the “-san” (unless he says it so quickly that I don’t hear it, which I guess is possible.) So, under what conditions is it considered unnecessary to add “-san” to someone’s name? Is it ever used in print? Do younger generations still follow the custom? How likely would it be for someone to drop the “-san” as a deliberate insult? I don’t suppose Osama bin Laden’s ever called “Osama-san”…but what about “Michael Moore-san”, or “George W. Bush-san”? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/2 "2004-06-30T02:28:20Z")
I’m not an expert in this, but I believe that the “-san” is just used for last names and only last names. It would be “Moore-san”, never “Michael Moore-san”. The Japanese don’t like to use first names much. As for not being able to hear the Chairman correctly, that’s possible. Japanese has very short vowel sounds and it’s easy to miss parts. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/3 "2004-06-30T03:16:43Z")
The honorific “-san” is attached to the commonly used name, which is generally the family name. There are exceptions. Sometimes, younger people, or junior people in a company, are referred to by their first name. My boss’ assistant, for instance, was Azusa-san, which was her first name. Since I am introduced to people by my first name (as a Westerner, this is expected and accepted), people often address me in Japan as “Cerowyn-san” (well, using my RL first name, but you get the point). In some cases, the affectionate “-chan” is used (particularly with children or much younger co-workers). As well, “-san” is not used when referring to colleagues from your own company to other people, and never in reference to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/4 "2004-06-30T03:18:43Z")
I’ve had Japanese collegues refer to me as FirstName-san. They’ll use it with our first names and we’ll use it with their last names. It’s kind of a cultural compromise. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/5 "2004-06-30T03:20:39Z")
And, of course, I failed to answer several questions in the OP. Yes, “-san” appears in print, although in Hiragana, naturally. I can’t imagine anyone Japanese ever dropping the “-san” honorific, although I suppose it’s possible. Michael Moore would be Moore-san, and George W. Bush would be Bush-san (or Bush-sama, as a sign of great respect for a foreign head of state). ---
**Author:** ![RindaRinda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@RindaRinda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RindaRinda)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/6 "2004-06-30T03:23:39Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Chairman Kaga almost never uses the “-san” (unless he says it so quickly that I don’t hear it, which I guess is possible.) He’s the host of the show, so his status might be higher than the chefs, so that might be one reason why he drops it. A higher-up might drop the “san” when addressing underlings. More likely, it’s because the chefs are celebrities. When I hear the names of celebrities being said on TV, I don’t ever remember hearing a “san” used after the name. Not out of impoliteness, but because these are Big Names, almost like brands. > [@](#): > > So, under what conditions is it considered unnecessary to add “-san” to someone’s name? I mentioned a couple of examples above. Also, there are variations on “san.” There is “kun,” used to refer to boys and younger males. For example, at my workplace, there is a 22 year old male. He is referred to as “Takamura-kun.” Using “san” for him would be weird. There is also “chan” for young girls, but generally, you stop calling them “chan” when they get around adolescent age, although they might refer to friends as “A-chan.” Close friends might drop it altogether when talking to each other, and of course, you don’t use it with family members. By the way, you can use the “san” with a full name, e.g. Yamamoto Kaori-san, or first name only (see below). > [@](#): > > Is it ever used in print? Yes, sometimes it’s used in print. In the recent case of the 11 year old girl slashing her 12 year old classmate to death with a box cutter, the victim was referred to as both “Mitarai Satomi-san” and “Satomi-san” (first name only). Sometimes, “-shi” is used also. I see this a lot in business correspondence, but it also appears in the newspaper. “-shi” is used for adults only, I believe. > [@](#): > > Do younger generations still follow the custom? How likely would it be for someone to drop the “-san” as a deliberate insult? I don’t suppose Osama bin Laden’s ever called “Osama-san”…but what about “Michael Moore-san”, or “George W. Bush-san”? Yes, younger people still use it. I’ve never heard it dropped as an insult. Usually, various rude variations on the 2nd person pronoun is used, or just insult words (“Baka!”). I can’t remember what they call Osama bin Laden. I think they just use the “bin Ladin” part. GW Bush is referred to as “Busshu Daitouryou” (President Bush) or “Busshu-san,” or sometimes just plain “Busshu.” Michael Moore, in print, is plain “Muua,” “Muua-kantoku” (Director Moore), or “Muua-shi.” Like I said, famous people, and oftentimes regular foreigners, get the “yobi-sute” treatment, “yobi-sute” meaning the “san” or other forms of address get dropped. ---
**Author:** ![RindaRinda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@RindaRinda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RindaRinda)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/7 "2004-06-30T03:28:40Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > As well, “-san” is not used when referring to colleagues from your own company to other people, and never in reference to yourself. I forgot about this. This could be another reason Chairman Kaga drops the “san.” The chefs are part of his group, and he is announcing their name to the audience, who’re outside the group. ---
**Author:** ![carterba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@carterba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carterba)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/8 "2004-06-30T04:09:52Z")
When I took Japanese in college, the professors (who were Japanese) called the women firstname-san and the men lastname-san. When I occasionally try to put my Japanese in practice and read the newspaper [asahi.com](http://asahi.com), it seems that people are typically referred to by their title (Bush-president, Blair-prime-minister, etc) or “shi” if they’re less well-known. Michael Moore would probably get a “shi”. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/9 "2004-06-30T05:34:50Z")
_San_ is the most common of many suffixes that are appended to names. As it has been mentioned, it usually goes after the family name, though sometimes it gets tacked on the given name. Sort of like Mr. Fred. Other common suffixes are: _Sama_: “san” was originally a contraction of that word. It’s the most polite suffix and is used to refer to clients, respectable or elderly people, gods, etc. _Chan_: A variation on “san”. Used for babies or to refer to young girls informally. It’s often used to make nicknames. For instance, Atsuko might become Acchan. It’s also used in very very informal situations when refering to close friends. If I go out drinking with my buddy Kentaro, I might call him Ken-chan. _Kun_: This is used for boys or inferiors in a company setting. A boss calls his employees with that suffix. In couples, the boyfriend will usually use -chan when addressing his girlfriend and she’ll use -kun for him. _Shi_: This is a formal suffix that’s almost exclusively used in writing. You see it a lot in newspapers. _Sensei_: This one is fairly famous abroad. It’s used for teachers and people whose work requires a lot of education, such as doctors or lawyers. Appart from that, in the public sphere, people are often refered to by their occupation. For instance, the word for athlete is _senshu_ and thus Hideki Matsui is refered to as Matsui-senshu in the news, not Matsui-san, or Matsui-shi. For very famous people, suffixes can be dropped. Akira Kurosawa can either be Kurosawa Akira or Kurosawa-kantoku (director). Osama bin-Laden is refered to in the news as either just “bin Laden” (celebrity factor) or as “bin-Laden-shi” (formal). George Bush has a special title so he’s always refered to as “Bush-daitoryo” (president). Michael Moore -\> Moore-shi or Moore-kantoku. ---
**Author:** ![RindaRinda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@RindaRinda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RindaRinda)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/10 "2004-06-30T05:58:33Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > _Chan_: A variation on “san”. Used for babies or to refer to young girls informally. It’s often used to make nicknames. For instance, Atsuko might become Acchan. It’s also used in very very informal situations when refering to close friends. If I go out drinking with my buddy Kentaro, I might call him Ken-chan. ::sigh:: The diminutive “chan.” There are some women and girls who put “chan” onto everything. They’ll make “chan”-ending nicknames for male or female adults they like (I’m “Rin-chan” to a couple of girls), or food, e.g., “ame-chan” for candy. I’ve even heard “gobo-chan” (gobo is a kind of nasty root vegetable). Let’s not forget “wan-chan” for dog (“wan” is “bow wow” in Japanese), “nyan-chan” for cat (“nya” or “nyao” is “meow” in Japanese). Worse yet, this verbal tic is infectious. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/11 "2004-06-30T06:04:33Z")
> [@RindaRinda](#): > > Let’s not forget “wan-chan” for dog (“wan” is “bow wow” in Japanese), “nyan-chan” for cat (“nya” or “nyao” is “meow” in Japanese). Actually, that’s not a verbal tick, it’s proper baby-talk. I don’t remember who it was but one of the J-dopers once wrote about refusing to use _wan-chan_ and the like with his/her own kids. They were corrected by the kindergarten instructor when they said “inu” or “kuruma”. “Wan-chan” _is_ proper Japanese… If you’re under six years-old (or talking to someone that age.) ---
**Author:** ![RindaRinda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@RindaRinda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RindaRinda)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/12 "2004-06-30T06:18:05Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > Actually, that’s not a verbal tick, it’s proper baby-talk. I don’t remember who it was but one of the J-dopers once wrote about refusing to use _wan-chan_ and the like with his/her own kids. They were corrected by the kindergarten instructor when they said “inu” or “kuruma”. “Wan-chan” _is_ proper Japanese… If you’re under six years-old (or talking to someone that age.) “_Kuruma_-chan?” as in, “my witto car-ry-war-ry?” Or is there other some kind of baby talk word for car? “Wan-chan” and “nyan-chan” are legitimate baby talk words, but they’re also often used in advertisements, aimed toward adults, for pet products. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/13 "2004-06-30T06:25:15Z")
> [@RindaRinda](#): > > “_Kuruma_-chan?” as in, “my witto car-ry-war-ry?” Or is there other some kind of baby talk word for car? Buu-buu. Also, a nitpick I missed the first time around: > [@](#): > > I’ve even heard “gobo-chan” (gobo is a kind of nasty root vegetable). I think there’s a typo there. It should read: “gobo is a kind of **tasty** root vegetable.” I think I’m going to make me some kinpira gobo tonight! ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/14 "2004-06-30T12:02:28Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > Osama bin-Laden is refered to in the news as either just “bin Laden” (celebrity factor) or as “bin-Laden-shi” (formal). Wow, that’s interesting. So I guess everyone gets a suffix, no matter how good or evil they are? Japanese politeness wins again. 🙂 Also…are any suffixes used for pets? ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/15 "2004-06-30T12:20:22Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Also…are any suffixes used for pets? Sometimes. Often, actually. When one is used it’s either _chan_ or _kun_, the same ones you would use for a child, or, perhaps more importantly, young people use to refer to their close friends. While not really pets, two good examples along that line would be [Domo-kun](http://www.cardhouse.com/travel/japan/domokun.htm) and the inevitable [Kitty-chan](http://www.sanrio.com/main/charactersection/kt.html). ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/16 "2004-06-30T12:37:25Z")
Just for clarification: if someone has completely rendered theirself undeserving of any respectful title (say they’ve comitted a horrible crime), are they still referred to as “xxxx-san”? For example, let’s say that Hideshi Nakamura (totally making up a name here) rapes, murders and mutilates an adolescent girl. Reading the news account of his sentencing, would it say “Nakamura-_san_ was sentenced to 100 years in prison.”? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/17 "2004-06-30T12:55:56Z")
I can’t tell you the rules, I don’t know them. I can tell you that when I was in Japan, and now when I hear from my friends in Japan, they refer to me as Khadaji-san (well, actually they use my real first name.) They also used san with the names of companies. Fujitsu-san and IBM-san. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/18 "2004-06-30T13:03:08Z")
I think I grasp an element of the usage here. First, the Japanese culture evolved as a hierarchical one, in which humility and respect were key factors. One uses _-san_ and its variants as marks of respect toward others _when another title is not being used_. And just as you would be inclined to use the “we”/“us” construction referencing your business associates with yourself, you will not use the honorific of them (as a part of the expanded “self” which expresses formal humility about itself) when speaking of them to a client or other in a non-colleague role. And children normally will not take the adult honorifics but will receive a special honorific. This accords interestingly with the more formal English of the past, some of whose customs are retained by some today. The New York Times and some other newspapers whose “etiquette style” is equally conservative will very rarely refer to a person by a naked surname (“Bush”, “Mobutu”) but will use “Mr. Bush” and similar forms unless “President Bush” or another title is appropriate to the context. (I try, inconsistently, to write and post using that style myself, since it reduces the amount of hostility borne by a post. “Mr. Bush is dealing with the consequences of a serious mistake” says the same thing as, but is far less hostile, than “Bush is in deep doo-doo.”) And just as children as recipients of letters got the formal address of “Master” and “Miss” (and would be introduced aloud with those honorifics in extremely formal settings), so do Japanese children get an age-appropriate measure of respect tinged with affection. (It occurs to me that that might be socially beneficial to re-introduce in English today, not for the stilted etiquette, but for the “you’re a kid, but you’re entitled to _a little_ respect” aspect – it could have valuable positive psychosocial consequences.) And a question of curiosity – given the social ferment that is going on, would “-chan” ever be used speaking of a _male_ metaphorically (obviously not as a title of affectionate respect), and what would be the probable implied intent? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/19 "2004-06-30T13:33:32Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > _Sensei_: This one is fairly famous abroad. It’s used for teachers and people whose work requires a lot of education, such as doctors or lawyers. As well as some people who we would not really include in that category, such as manga artists and hair stylists. Some of the people entitled to a ‘Sensei’ can seem pretty random. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/20 "2004-06-30T13:46:25Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > For example, let’s say that Hideshi Nakamura (totally making up a name here) rapes, murders and mutilates an adolescent girl. Reading the news account of his sentencing, would it say “Nakamura-_san_ was sentenced to 100 years in prison.”? On the news/papers, it plays out this way: after his arrest, he would be called Nakamura-_yogisha_ (suspect). From the start of the trial he would be Nakamura-_hikokusha_ (defendant). After the sentence, well, they’d just stop talking about him. (To be sure, though, I googled a bit for some famous criminals and it seems like _hikokusha_ sticks.) > [@Polycarp](#): > > And a question of curiosity – given the social ferment that is going on, would “-chan” ever be used speaking of a male metaphorically (obviously not as a title of affectionate respect), and what would be the probable implied intent? -Chan is usually affixed to names to make them cute. As a matter of fact, it derives from an affectation of baby-talk where ‘s’ sounds are replaced by ‘ch’. For those who know a bit of Japanese, the copula “desu” becomes “dechu” in the mouth of a very young child. Young women “wear” this suffix for the same reason they often buy Hello Kitty stationary and the like, for the “cute” factor. When used in a drinking buddies context, it’s a mark of friendly disrespect. Somewhat like very good friends in some parts of the U.S. might call each other names as a form of affection. (See the “bitch” debate from a few month ago in IMHO, I think.) The usage of “chan” is not an issue here. One reason for this is that it’s always informal. The suffix that _has_ become a bit problematic is -kun. It used to be used exclusively for males. It is, however, used to refer to underlings in the corporate ladder. As more women take on position traditionally held by men only, a usage problem appears: is it acceptable to refer to women as -kun? In many places this is what is done but some people, including a few women, feel it doesn’t sound quite right. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815.md?page=2)