# Usage of Japanese "-san" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815 "2004-06-30T02:05:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/21 "2004-06-30T13:51:57Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > As well as some people who we would not really include in that category, such as manga artists and hair stylists. Some of the people entitled to a ‘Sensei’ can seem pretty random. Oops, I missed this one. The logic here is that it’s also used for anyone who has mastered an art or craft. It’s not just _any_ manga artist or stylist. Usually they’re people who have a very good reputation. Also, if you like period movies, it’s used for ronin hired as bodyguards (yojimbo). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/22 "2004-06-30T14:12:48Z")
In the anime/manga series “Marmalade Boy”, a young male teacher is addressed by the students as “Na-chan”. To show him proper respect, they should call him “Namura-sensei” or “Sensei”, but they appear to call him “-chan” because he is young and popular, and because he likes being addressed informally. So I’m guessing from this that it’s not that unusual to address a male superior as “-chan”, as a sign of mutual liking. ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/23 "2004-06-30T14:21:53Z")
One special case where you don’t use “-san”: the Emperor, who generally is referred to only as Tennou Heika, or His Imperial Majesty. If the speaker is comparing the current Emporer with, say, his father, the reign names might be used instead: Heisei Tennou (the Hesei Emperor) v. Showa Tennou, his father. I never heard anyone refer to the Emperor by his personal name, Akihito. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/24 "2004-06-30T14:28:05Z")
How do Japanese soldiers and officers address each other. For example, translate the honorofics of the following exchange using Japanese titles: HIGH-RANKING OFFICER (say, Colonel): Private! Bring me a cup of coffee! LOW-RANKING SOLDIER: Yes sir! Do the soldiers address their officers with an equivalent of “sir.” Or do they just say, “Hai [officer’s title]” as in “Yes Colonel” instead of “Yes sir!”? And in the reverse, do military personnel address their inferiors as “xxx-san”, or do they use their rank as well? ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/25 "2004-06-30T14:59:25Z")
Here’s an interesting [article](http://home.att.net/~keiichiro/gokai/eng/mr.html) written by a native Japanese speaker on the use of “san”. He doesn’t consider it to be the equivalent of “mister”. > [@](#): > > But we Japanese know that “SAN” is not used to make the relationship stiff. “SAN” does make the relationship more intimate. This is quite opposite to “Mr.” which is used to make it more formal. > I know there are some companies that do campaign to call each other with “SAN” in order to have better communication in the office. As for me I can not even imagine calling the chief of the branch or the division with “SAN” because it is too intimate to call such senior people in Japanese. But it is proper enough for me to call them with “Mr.” in English. > That is, while “Mr.” makes the relationship formal, “SAN” makes it intimate. These two words are very different. What they mean are opposite. When you treat these two as interchangeable, you come up with a misunderstanding that Japanese are stiff. The American executive mentioned before just pretended to know Japanese customs well, but actually he only repeated an old stereotype based on an inaccurate translation. He must not have tried to understand Japanese language/culture. So I am bothered/miffed/offended. > [@polycarp](#): > > And a question of curiosity – given the social ferment that is going on, would “-chan” ever be used speaking of a male metaphorically (obviously not as a title of affectionate respect), and what would be the probable implied intent? I’ve seen “chan” used sarcastically. But that’s in manga which isn’t always a particularly good reflection of actual Japanese usage. ---
**Author:** ![RindaRinda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@RindaRinda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RindaRinda)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/26 "2004-06-30T16:01:07Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > As more women take on position traditionally held by men only, a usage problem appears: is it acceptable to refer to women as -kun? In many places this is what is done but some people, including a few women, feel it doesn’t sound quite right. The only time I’ve ever heard “kun” being used to refer to a female was in my aikido dojo. The young women were called “X-kun,” and didn’t mind. Given the increased use of the male “I” pronoun “boku” and “ore” by young females these days, I wouldn’t be surprised if calling younger women “kun” gradually became more popular. > [@polycarp](#): > > And a question of curiosity – given the social ferment that is going on, would “-chan” ever be used speaking of a male metaphorically (obviously not as a title of affectionate respect), and what would be the probable implied intent? As I mentioned before, young women and girls will refer to an adult, male or female, that they like by using a nickname+chan. It just signals affection. > [@](#): > > But we Japanese know that “SAN” is not used to make the relationship stiff. “SAN” does make the relationship more intimate. This is quite opposite to “Mr.” which is used to make it more formal. > I know there are some companies that do campaign to call each other with “SAN” in order to have better communication in the office. As for me I can not even imagine calling the chief of the branch or the division with “SAN” because it is too intimate to call such senior people in Japanese. But it is proper enough for me to call them with “Mr.” in English. Certainly, calling someone by their title, e.g. Tanaka-buchou (Section Chief Tanaka) or something like that is more formal than calling him Tanaka-san. One small company in Japan made it their policy to drop the titles and refer to everyone as “san.” But it seems “san” is only intimate when compared to titles. It isn’t as intimate as “chan,” and certainly not as intimate as dropping titles altogether. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/27 "2004-06-30T16:28:47Z")
> [@RindaRinda](#): > > Certainly, calling someone by their title, e.g. Tanaka-buchou (Section Chief Tanaka) or something like that is more formal than calling him Tanaka-san. One small company in Japan made it their policy to drop the titles and refer to everyone as “san.” > > But it seems “san” is only intimate when compared to titles. It isn’t as intimate as “chan,” and certainly not as intimate as dropping titles altogether. It seems to me that using “san” contributes to intimacy in that it defines relationships. Actually, all the Japanese name suffixes do that. They help identify the speakers relationship to the person being addressed. OK, another manga contribution. There’s an interesting exchange in one story I’ve read between two adult male characters who are lovers. The older one is always addressed as “Iwaki-san” and the younger one is “Katou”. Katou attempts to persuade Iwaki that they should use each others personal names. But Iwaki is completely uncomfortable with the idea of being addressed by just his personal name by an unrelated adult male (even though the characters consider themselves “married”). I thought it interesting that even in the context of a love affair, the character is unwilling to relax the title customs. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/28 "2004-06-30T19:59:11Z")
There is also -sempai, which refers to a person older than/above you like an upperclassman whom you would rely on for guidance. And -kouhai which refers to the younger/subordinate partner in the relationship. In this one anime I saw, the low classmate kept being terribly disrespectful to his older classmate and instead of calling him “xxx-sempai” refered to him as “xxx-kun.” As another example of being disrespectful, there is a jrock star who goes by Mana and is called Mana-sama by all his fans. Whenever my friend speaks of him, he always uses Mana-chan which he means to be insulting. ---
**Author:** ![brane\_damaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a587f6/32.png) [@brane\_damaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brane_damaj)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/29 "2004-06-30T20:04:02Z")
What about “-sempai”? I’ve heard that used, and I have a vague idea what it means, but I’d rather hear it from someone more learned in the Asian tongues than I. ---
**Author:** ![brane\_damaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a587f6/32.png) [@brane\_damaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brane_damaj)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/30 "2004-06-30T20:07:03Z")
\Ava\ must by psychic. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/31 "2004-06-30T23:33:30Z")
> [@RindaRinda](#): > > “Wan-chan” and “nyan-chan” are legitimate baby talk words, but they’re also often used in advertisements, aimed toward adults, for pet products. Everybody wan-chan tonight. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/32 "2004-07-01T03:09:54Z")
I started a Pit thread awhile ago about how I felt my secretary was an ass because she called our Japanese clients -san. It’s not Mr. Nakimoto-san. It’s either Mr. Nakimoto or Nakimotosan (AFAIK). What are we in a fucking James Clavell novel? I don’t call my Spanish boss Senior Hermanez. My girlfriend is of German decent. Should I call her Frau-Girlfriend? It sounds stupid using the one word of a foreign language you know. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/33 "2004-07-01T04:54:58Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > How do Japanese soldiers and officers address each other. For example, translate the honorofics of the following exchange using Japanese titles: One of the characteristics of the Japanese language is that it is very compartmented. Depending on the context, the vocabulary often changes to a great extent. As such, the military, of course, has its own slew of idioms and expressions that aren’t used elsewhere. A good example of this is that soldiers always refer to themselves as _jibun_, instead of, say, _watakushi_. That said, I’m not 100% sure what the current proper usage is in the SDF. In the old imperial army, you would address superiors by their titles, followed by either the suffix _-dono_, or _-kakka_ for generals. “Kakka” isn’t in use anymore, I believe. I _think_ soldiers just refer to each other by their rank nowadays. “Yes, sir” just comes out as “hai!” You don’t add people’s name after “hai” in Japanese, as you do after “yes” in English.?Your exchange thus comes out something like: -Kohi wo kure! -Hai! > [@Giles](#): > > In the anime/manga series “Marmalade Boy”, a young male teacher is addressed by the students as “Na-chan”. To show him proper respect, they should call him “Namura-sensei” or “Sensei”, but they appear to call him “-chan” because he is young and popular, and because he likes being addressed informally. So I’m guessing from this that it’s not that unusual to address a male superior as “-chan”, as a sign of mutual liking. No no no, it’s _very_ unusual. I think it might have been included in the story for comic effect as it’s _extremely_ unlikely a teacher, no matter how cool he is, would get called Nacchan by his students. -Chan for grown up men is almost unheard outside of bars and places like that - though it’s very common there. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/34 "2004-07-01T05:15:31Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > No no no, it’s _very_ unusual. I think it might have been included in the story for comic effect as it’s _extremely_ unlikely a teacher, no matter how cool he is, would get called Nacchan by his students. -Chan for grown up men is almost unheard outside of bars and places like that - though it’s very common there. I’m gonna have to disagree with you here. There are a couple of young male teachers at my schools who are called -chan by the female students. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/35 "2004-07-01T05:17:10Z")
> [@tremorviolet](#): > > But that’s in manga which isn’t always a particularly good reflection of actual Japanese usage. Indeed. The phrase ‘I read/saw it in a manga/anime’ is a cursed phrase on most Japanese language forums/boards I know of. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/36 "2004-07-01T15:06:14Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Indeed. The phrase ‘I read/saw it in a manga/anime’ is a cursed phrase on most Japanese language forums/boards I know of. Yeah, I know all the old guys at sci.lang.japan would agree. (particularly Charles Eicher, he’s obsessed with the idea that manga and anime are _ruining_ Japanese culture) But, I think it depends on the manga you read. The sci-fi stuff gets a little weird but I mostly read adult romance manga that takes place in modern day Japan. And the mangaka usually strive to make it realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Igor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Vlad\_Igor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Igor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/37 "2004-07-01T17:34:45Z")
Argh. And I though German case was bad. I need some advice, then. In September, a post-doc will come to work with us for a year. I (with a lowly B.S.) will be showing her where things are in the lab, and possibly one or two procedures/assays she may not be familiar with. I would like her to be comfortable here, and not have to deal with too much culture shock. Should I use Family name-san when addressing her? If I ask for information or advice (as a PhD.) should I approach her with “Family name-sempai?” Vlad/Igor ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Igor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Vlad\_Igor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Igor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/38 "2004-07-01T17:53:37Z")
> [@Vlad/Igor](#): > > Argh. And I though German case was bad. I need some advice, then. In September, a post-doc will come to work with us for a year. Oh yeah, she’s coming from Japan, and her English is not that good. Proofread, gotta proofread more often, man. Vlad/Igor :smack: ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/39 "2004-07-01T22:46:43Z")
> [@Vlad/Igor](#): > > Argh. And I though German case was bad. I need some advice, then. In September, a post-doc will come to work with us for a year. I (with a lowly B.S.) will be showing her where things are in the lab, and possibly one or two procedures/assays she may not be familiar with. I would like her to be comfortable here, and not have to deal with too much culture shock. Should I use Family name-san when addressing her? If I ask for information or advice (as a PhD.) should I approach her with “Family name-sempai?” > > Vlad/Igor If addressing her in Japanese, I think that ‘Family name-sensei’ would be best. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815/40 "2004-07-01T22:57:46Z")
> [@tremorviolet](#): > > Yeah, I know all the old guys at sci.lang.japan would agree. (particularly Charles Eicher, he’s obsessed with the idea that manga and anime are _ruining_ Japanese culture) But, I think it depends on the manga you read. The sci-fi stuff gets a little weird but I mostly read adult romance manga that takes place in modern day Japan. And the mangaka usually strive to make it realistic. Yeah, Charles Eicher has some major issues. His claims that no non-native speaker who reads manga is good at Japanese are ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usage-of-japanese-san/252815.md?page=3)