# Use and meaning of the word "damascene"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 28, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365 "2006-07-28T04:49:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/1 "2006-07-28T04:49:14Z")
Here is a brief excerpt from an article I’m reading in today’s New England Journal of Medicine:
> [@](#):
>
> . . . given that under the British system of parliamentary accountability, ministers were answerable for every dropped bedpan in the National Health Service, political embarrassment followed: a command-and-control system meant the centralization of blame.
>
> A _damascene_ conversion followed, as ministerial frustration increased. By 2002, ministers had became convinced that the answer was to decentralize and to insulate themselves from political exposure to the day-to-day problems of the NHS.
In the excerpt, I’ve italicized ‘damascene’, a word that, frankly, I’m not familiar with. Judging by its place in the sentence, I assume it’s being used an adjective here.
Various on-line sources define the adjective ‘damascene’ as:
1. Of or relating to damascening.
OR
1. Of or relating to damask.
(with damascening meaning to ornament with wavy patterns, and damask referring to either a gray-red colour or a firm, lustrous fiber)
I don’t understand how _any_ of these definitions fits the usage of _damascene_ in the NEJM article above. Has the author used the word inappropriately? Are the online dictionaries I’ve consulted wrong or incomplete? Something else?
I’ll look forward to your help and comments. Thanks!
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### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/2 "2006-07-28T05:10:04Z")
From what I can tell, it’s intended to convey the sense of being elaborate, complex, convoluted, sophisticated or embellished. Things of that nature. One example [here](http://experts.about.com/q/Etymology-Meaning-Words-1474/Word-definition.htm).
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### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/3 "2006-07-28T05:13:05Z")
Ah! Very helpful. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/4 "2006-07-28T05:38:56Z")
I’m going to take issue with **Q.E.D** on this: a “damascene conversion” is one like that which Saint Paul {or Saul, as he was then} experienced on the road to Damascus, when God suddenly appeared to him in a blinding flash when Saul was on his way to persecute some Christians: “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” {Acts ix. 4}
In context, a damascene conversion is a sudden and unexpected reversal of postion; I’d call something politically over-elaborate or over-wrought “Byzantine”, not “Damascene”.
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### Author:  [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/5 "2006-07-28T05:45:24Z")
On preview, I see that **Case Sensitive** got in ahead of me. I agree.
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### Author:  [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/6 "2006-07-28T05:50:29Z")
Indeed, in this case **Sensitive** is right and **Q.E.D.** is incorrect. It’s talking about a sudden and complete change of attitude or beliefs in a person.
Here the British Crown ministers switch from taking all responsibility for problems in their portfolios to taking none unless they were directly involved. Another proud export from Australia, where our Lords and Masters have perfected the art of not knowing anything that goes on in their portfolio so they are accountable for nothing.
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/7 "2006-07-28T06:49:00Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#):
>
> In context, a damascene conversion is a sudden and unexpected reversal of postion.
Incidentally, the phrase “the scales fell from my eyes” also stems from the same chapter, after Saul’s sight was restored: “And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptised.” {Acts ix, 18}
The scales falling from one’s eyes is usually associated with a Damascene conversion; whoever wrote the article that **Q.E.D** linked to ought to have spent more time in Sunday School
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### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/8 "2006-07-28T10:55:50Z")
Wow! Thanks for your input.
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/9 "2006-07-28T11:46:06Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#):
>
> Wow! Thanks for your input.
Pleasure - always nice to earn one’s keep around here.
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### Author:  [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/10 "2006-07-28T12:06:21Z")
Incidentally, Saul was a tax collector
- they worked on commission
His conversion on the road to Damascus was like the Pope advocating contraception.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/11 "2006-07-28T12:28:34Z")
There’s no tradition that Saul/Paul was a tax collector. You’re thinking of Levi/Matthew.
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### Author:  [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/12 "2006-07-28T12:53:25Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> There’s no tradition that Saul/Paul was a tax collector. You’re thinking of Levi/Matthew.
A quick check on Google suggest 22,800 pages that think Saul was a tax collector.
Also, from memory, he was not visually blind, the ‘scales’ were a metaphor.
I could be wrong, but despite my derision of old myths, I’ve always been fond of using widely understood allusions.
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### Author:  [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/13 "2006-07-28T13:55:11Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> There’s no tradition that Saul/Paul was a tax collector. You’re thinking of Levi/Matthew.
Saul/Paul is described as being a “Hebrew of the Hebrews,” and a “Pharasee.”
Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an **Hebrew of the Hebrews** ; as touching the law, a **Pharisee** ;
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/14 "2006-07-28T14:19:32Z")
> [@spingears](#):
>
> Saul/Paul is described as being a “Hebrew of the Hebrews,” and a “Pharasee.”
> Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an **Hebrew of the Hebrews** ; as touching the law, a **Pharisee** ;
Right…but his profession isn’t specified.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/15 "2006-07-28T14:26:19Z")
> [@FRDE](#):
>
> A quick check on Google suggest 22,800 pages that think Saul was a tax collector.
>
> Also, from memory, he was not visually blind, the ‘scales’ were a metaphor.
>
> I could be wrong, but despite my derision of old myths, I’ve always been fond of using widely understood allusions.
Are you sure those aren’t just pages that have both the words “saul” and “tax collector”?
Anyway, here’s the passage from Acts…Acts 9:3-18
> [@](#):
>
> As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
> “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
>
> “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
>
> The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
>
> In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”
> “Yes, Lord,” he answered.
>
> The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”
>
> “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
>
> But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
>
> Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/16 "2006-07-28T14:42:34Z")
Here are some images of what [damascened steel](http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/damascus-steel.htm) looks like. Wavy, complex, not as shiny, but perhaps tougher than normal steel, and capable of being sharpened to a much finer edge than normal steel.
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### Author:  [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/17 "2006-07-28T15:24:01Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Right…but his profession isn’t specified.
I’m no expert in these matters but from [this page](http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd287.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> Perhaps the most natural career for the youth to follow was that of a merchant. “But it was decided that… he should go to college and become a rabbi, that is, a minister, a teacher, and a lawyer all in one.” According to Jewish custom, however, he learned a trade before entering on the more direct preparation for the sacred profession. The trade he acquired was the making of tents from goats’ hair cloth, a trade which was one of the commonest in Tarsus. His preliminary education having been completed, Saul was sent, when about thirteen years of age probably, to the great Jewish school of sacred learning at Jerusalem as a student of the law.
I can’t comment on the reliability of the specified link.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/18 "2006-07-28T16:05:07Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Right…but his profession isn’t specified.
And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
–_Acts 18:3_
**FRDR** , there is no tradition that Paul was a tax collector and no such claim is found in the New Testament.
**Spingears** , Pharisees had nothing to do with tax collecting.
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### Author:  [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/19 "2006-07-28T17:38:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
> –_Acts 18:3_
> **FRDR** , there is no tradition that Paul was a tax collector and no such claim is found in the New Testament.
Thank you for finding that. I knew it was in there somewhere. Yeah, guys, as one of the most churchified people on this board, I promise you it was Matthew who was the tax collector, and Paul who apparently was the tentmaker. This in fact has created a phrase in the modern church, where “tentmaking” means you’re holding down a real job as you do your mission work so that you’re more (or wholly) self supporting.
And you’ve no doubt noticed that the larger cited passage doesn’t really allow for metaphorical blindness.
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### Author:  [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-and-meaning-of-the-word-damascene/366365/20 "2006-07-28T18:05:32Z")
> [@Cardinal](#):
>
> Thank you for finding that. I knew it was in there somewhere. Yeah, guys, as one of the most churchified people on this board, I promise you it was Matthew who was the tax collector, and Paul who apparently was the tentmaker. This in fact has created a phrase in the modern church, where “tentmaking” means you’re holding down a real job as you do your mission work so that you’re more (or wholly) self supporting.
> (snip)
In one of the epistles, doesn’t Paul rather snippily mention that he’s out there working for a living, while the Church is supporting some other characters… (maybe including Peter)?
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