# Use math, will ya? That's a fine of 500 simoleons! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 27, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331 "2017-04-27T00:10:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/61 "2017-05-01T03:36:27Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > He does have an engineering degree. How can you say that “he is clearly not qualified” to present mathematical formulas? > > Count me in with the “heavy-handed” side. What if he had said: > > You can trust my math on this because I am an engineer.\* > > \*Although not licensed in Oregon. The fundemental issue is not a matter of where he is licensed but that he is an **electrical** engineer and not a **civil** engineer. He is presenting information and using the “engineering” word to help give his information additional credibility when the type of engineering degree he has is not relevant to the information he is presenting. His ideas may be very sound, if he’d just managed to promote them without implying he was a civil engineer then I would hope there wouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/62 "2017-05-01T12:21:20Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > The fundemental issue is not a matter of where he is licensed but that he is an **electrical** engineer and not a **civil** engineer. He is presenting information and using the “engineering” word to help give his information additional credibility when the type of engineering degree he has is not relevant to the information he is presenting. _This_, very, very strongly. I’m a doctor. A have doctoral degree. When I taught, students called me “Doctor FtG”. But I am not a medical doctor. Big difference. If I wrote a letter calling myself a doctor and offering medical advice I would certainly expect that to be a legal issue. So what if he has an engineering degree? So … what? It’s a different type of degree. The guy was out of line. Bringing up the EE thing is weird. Again, so what? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/63 "2017-05-01T15:06:13Z")
Has this law ever been used in this way previously? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/64 "2017-05-01T15:29:58Z")
What do you mean by “in this way”? To fine someone presenting themselves as an engineer and practicing as such, who doesn’t have a license? I should imagine so. To fine someone who really shouldn’t have been in legal trouble at all? Then you must first make the case that this is such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/65 "2017-05-01T15:58:20Z")
Have people been prosecuted for calling themselves/implying they are engineers? Sure. An infamous example is scum-of-the-Earth [Fred Leuchter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A._Leuchter#Education_and_career). Made up some crap about being an “unregistered” engineer in Massachusetts and got convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/66 "2017-05-01T16:07:13Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Have people been prosecuted for calling themselves/implying they are engineers? Sure. > > An infamous example is scum-of-the-Earth [Fred Leuchter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A._Leuchter#Education_and_career). Made up some crap about being an “unregistered” engineer in Massachusetts and got convicted. He didn’t just _call_ himself an engineer. He took money from others operating as one, while falsely claiming that > [@](#): > > he is “unregistered as a professional engineer” because his state of Massachusetts didn’t have a state registration program for professional engineers. According to your article he went _far_ beyond just saying he was an engineer and giving an opinion that fell within his (unlicensed) expertise. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/67 "2017-05-01T16:24:00Z")
Yeah, this is small cheese. He wasn’t trying to profit from his misrepresentation he was just being deliberately vague in order to help push his ideas forward. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/68 "2017-05-01T16:48:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > The fundemental issue is not a matter of where he is licensed but that he is an **electrical** engineer and not a **civil** engineer. He is presenting information and using the “engineering” word to help give his information additional credibility when the type of engineering degree he has is not relevant to the information he is presenting. > > His ideas may be very sound, if he’d just managed to promote them without implying he was a civil engineer then I would hope there wouldn’t be a problem. Not according to the Order linked above. One count is indeed about to calling himself an ‘engineer’ (without a license), but another count is that he performed engineering (without a license). So, according to the Oregon board, even if he hadn’t used the magic word ‘engineer’ to describe himself, he still would have been in violation. And there is no allegation at all that he was outside of his specialty. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/69 "2017-05-01T16:56:19Z")
Performing engineering bit is silly I agree. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/70 "2017-05-01T20:44:15Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > \*Bringing up the EE thing is weird. Again, so what? You don’t think that there’s electrical engineering involved in the design of traffic light systems? I haven’t gone through them exhaustively, but the graphs look very similar to the timing diagrams which are a staple of circuit analysis and logic design. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/71 "2017-05-02T03:03:37Z")
Figuring out traffic light timing in order to regulate automobile traffic flow is a civil engineering thing. The particulars of the switchy circuit thingies that make the lghts go blinky blinky aren’t what Mr. Umlautsson was opining about. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/72 "2017-05-02T09:13:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You’d think “doctor” would be more important than “engineer,” but it’s not forbidden. I know a whole lot of people who use the word “doctor” to describe themselves. What they can’t say is that they are an “M.D.” One of the differences is that the title of ‘doctor’ existed as a title for a learned person back when the medical arts, such as they were, were practiced by barbers and the like. They can’t take ‘doctor’ away from us PhDs, we were there first. But we generously allow the practitioners of the medical trade to share our title. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/73 "2017-05-02T10:05:28Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Figuring out traffic light timing in order to regulate automobile traffic flow is a civil engineering thing. > > The particulars of the switchy circuit thingies that make the lghts go blinky blinky aren’t what Mr. Umlautsson was opining about. Granted. But the math behind traffic flow in computer network design (which many EE programs cover) is related. Mats appears to have gotten curious about the subject, and adapted his knowledge to it. But it doesn’t matter to the board. Mats could have a doctorate in civil engineering (but no license) and it’s still a paddlin’. It seems like it’d be awfully hard to guarantee that I’m violating the law this Oregon board is enforcing. I always understood that you can’t advertise services as an engineer without being licensed. But I didn’t know that so many other uses of the word were covered. Until I became a manager (and except for one period when I was a Research Mathematician) my job title has always included the word “engineer”. For years, I listed it as my occupation on tax returns. Assuming the law is similarly broad here in Maryland, could the state fine me? Could they fine my employer (the federal government) for coming up with the job titles? Hell, could they fine me for _performing_ my job? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/74 "2017-05-02T10:16:04Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Granted. But the math behind traffic flow in computer network design (which many EE programs cover) is related. Mats appears to have gotten curious about the subject, and adapted his knowledge to it. > > But it doesn’t matter to the board. Mats could have a doctorate in civil engineering (but no license) and it’s still a paddlin’. > > It seems like it’d be awfully hard to guarantee that I’m violating the law this Oregon board is enforcing. I always understood that you can’t advertise services as an engineer without being licensed. But I didn’t know that so many other uses of the word were covered. > > Until I became a manager (and except for one period when I was a Research Mathematician) my job title has always included the word “engineer”. For years, I listed it as my occupation on tax returns. Assuming the law is similarly broad here in Maryland, could the state fine me? Could they fine my employer (the federal government) for coming up with the job titles? Hell, could they fine me for _performing_ my job? Correction: "hard to guarantee that I’m not violating the law " ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/75 "2017-05-02T14:52:56Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Granted. But the math behind traffic flow in computer network design (which many EE programs cover) is related. **Mats appears to have gotten curious about the subject, and adapted his knowledge to it.** His quest for better-timed lights isn’t curiosity. His wife got a ticket for running a red light in 2013, and he’s been trying to blame a short yellow light for it ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/76 "2017-05-02T18:33:48Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > But he did sign his name on his recommendation for re-timing the lights, under the auspices of being an engineer. This is what got him in trouble, not complaining about the timing. He put forth an engineering recommendation and stated he was an engineer, giving credence to his recommendation. The Board and the State have an interest in ensuring that people who do this are in fact licensed. I have no problem with the Board’s action. Exactly. It’s amazing how many people are misunderstanding the facts which were linked earlier in the thread. I’ll wager most folks here have no idea without Googling what it takes to be a licensed Professional Engineer. Such as this person: [QUOTE=UltraVires] It seems as if a secondary purpose of these laws is so that the public does not spend money hiring engineers who didn’t pay the state licensing fee or otherwise participate in the monopoly the state wants to create. [/QUOTE] It seems that way because you have no idea about the acquisition of an ABET-accredited engineering degree, 4+ years of professional experience, training, validation by other more experienced Professional Engineers who you’ve worked directly under and who will sign an affidavit vouching for you, and sitting for two 8-hour formal exams that are needed for licensure. Plus the professional continuing education credits needed every year, and the host of other laws and regulations that we need to adhere to. Just getting an engineering degree doesn’t mean you should be practicing engineering to the public or representing yourself as an engineer to governmental entities. Not all people who get engineering degrees are equal; sorry. Some of the C- students that squeak through really shouldn’t be designing anything. Professional licensing and its process is another bar to cross that tries to weed some of the folks out and leave the best engineers to work for the public. It’s not even known if this guy’s degree meets the US ABET accreditation for engineering. I meet people with “engineering” degrees from schools all over the globe who can barely perform sophomore-level engineering. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/77 "2017-05-02T18:40:22Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I disagree. Mats Jarlstrom has a degree in engineering, and years of experience in technical fields. So? That doesn’t mean he’s good enough to be a licensed Professional Engineer. He should begin the licensure process if he wants to be one. > [@](#): > > His voluntary work on this subject was good enough for the Institute of Transportation Engineers to feature it at their national conference. Big deal. I’m not a computer scientist but I had a paper published at a national software engineering conference. I sit on committees for two of the largest engineering conferences in the world, and I can tell you there is no written requirement that anyone have a degree nor licensure to get a paper published. Sometimes papers are selected based simply upon being on a timely subject and out of curiosity. > [@](#): > > The laws of math and physics are the same in Sweden as in Oregon. The problem is you seem to be under the misunderstanding that engineering is mainly just math and physics. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/78 "2017-05-03T11:50:16Z")
**Una Persson** , I respect your credentials (I know you’re a licensed P.E.). But I stand by my opinion that the law is overly broad, and the enforcement heavy-handed. I was not aware of Mats’ history with the government related to his wife’s parking ticket (although that might explain some of the heavy-handedness). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/79 "2017-05-03T17:16:32Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > **Una Persson** , I respect your credentials (I know you’re a licensed P.E.). > > But I stand by my opinion that the law is overly broad, and the enforcement heavy-handed. > > I was not aware of Mats’ history with the government related to his wife’s parking ticket (although that might explain some of the heavy-handedness). I think a critical part of Mats’ problem was who he contacted. He contacted some of the very people who are going to be sticklers about this sort of thing, and when they cautioned him (from my reading of the court document) he kinda didn’t take the hint? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331/80 "2017-05-03T17:18:24Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > **Una Persson** , I respect your credentials (I know you’re a licensed P.E.). > > But I stand by my opinion that the law is overly broad, and the enforcement heavy-handed. > > I was not aware of Mats’ history with the government related to his wife’s parking ticket (although that might explain some of the heavy-handedness). BTW, thank you for your calm reply to my somewhat hot-headed original response. I apologize. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-math-will-ya-thats-a-fine-of-500-simoleons/785331.md?page=5)