Use of eminent domain to obtain Pope's childhood home

Great Debates
21

While I’m generally dubious of eminent domain, I’m not universally opposed to all instances municipalities establishing and maintaining memorials to local “celebrities.” Essentially celebrating local history, with an eye towards increasing tourism, as well as controlling any traffic or other issues.

And I say that despite my deep hatred for the Catholic church.

Why is it any more cumbersome to say “a suburb south of Chicago” or “south of Chicago” or any of the other countless possibilities. Is accuracy of no concern?

Do folk from the 5 boroughs of NYC think it matters if someone from Newark or Connecticut is described as a New Yorker? Is someone from Lexington, Mass a Bostonian?

I’ve OFTEN been accused of being pedantic. But in this instance, I just don’t see why a far more accurate and not significantly longer term would not be preferential. I was born and raised on the NW side of Chicago. So I will say I’m from Chicago. But for the past 40 years, if in anything other than the most casual reference, I choose to accurately say I am from a western suburb of Chicago.

No, I’m not saying Dolton is some hoity toity suburb, vastly different from much of the far south side. But as a kid he would not have been elegible to attend public schools, he would not have had CTA buses running through his neighborhood, he would not have had Mayor Daley and his sycophantic council, he would not have been playing in Chicago public parks. If you give a fuck about actually understanding where he came from, it might be worth acknowledging this distinction - especially since it could be done with only a word or 2.

When I heard he was from Chicago, my first thought was, “What school did he attend.” It was a disappointment to find that the reports had misled me.

My preferred approach would be, IF the city wanted to preserv the house, to put various historic preservation restrictions on it - such as restricting changes to the facade, and limiting its use. Since it has been gutted, much more seems unnecessary. Let the developer sell it and reap what profit he can.

22

Not really, no. Not unless I’m from that area or intimately familiar with it. If somebody tells me they’re from Detroit, I don’t really care that they’re from Farmington Hills or Royal Oak. Close enough info for me, and if I want more specificity, I’ll ask “oh, from the city or nearby” or something like that. I just automatically assume that when somebody gives me the name of a biggish city, that’s it’s likely shorthand for something in the area. This is how it’s always been, in my experience, and not specific to Chicago.

23

Yeah, when I’m traveling, I usually say I’m from San Francisco. I’m actually from San Rafael, a small town on the other side of the Golden Gate, but A) nobody knows where San Rafael is, and B) nobody cares.

24

I find this attitude curious - especially in a message board purportedly interested in fighting ignorance.

I have limited expectations of the media, but I presume they have reasons for providing the information and using the phrasing they do. Someone chose to say “the south side” of Chicago. Which is IMO unquestionably incorrect. So why did they choose that phrasing? Why not just say Chicago? If folk don’t care about city vs burbs, why should they care about sides? The south side of Chicago is pretty large. And diverse. Might mean different things to folk if he were from Little Village, Bridgeport, the Taylor Homes, Mount Greenwood, Lake Calumet…

Among the countless possibilities, they coulda said:

-a near south suburb;
-the south side;
-just south;
of Chicago

All are of pretty similar length. But 2 of the 3 have the benefit of actually being accurate. My preference would be “Dolton, a near south suburb of Chicago.”

So they COULD have VERY EASILY provided information that was VERY SIMILAR - but was actually correct AND provided slightly MORE nuance to anyone who might care. Further, at least WRT Chicago media, to the extent they had recently reported on Dolton’s mayor, this would tie the Pope story to the prior ones.

But instead, they CHOSE a phrasing that is inaccurate, and gives inaccurate information. Why?

I’m expecting the media to forgo giving stock results, specific temperatures, sports scores… It should be fine for them to just say, “the markets are up,” “it will be warm,” and “Sox lose again.” :wink:

25

If the town was a bidder the price would be higher, and thus above the price they are required to pay via eminent domain.

26

Dolton is literally on Chicago’s southern border, so I give that a pass for being “close enough”. If we were talking about Park Forest or Tinley Park, then yeah that’s a bridge too far.

I do wonder if the hastily retracted real estate listing would at least set a floor for the village’s purchase price. Yes the very threat of eminent domain can stomp down the value in a way that’s beneficial to the government, but the value of the home is certainly more than they listed it for originally, so I wonder how “just compensation” is agreed upon. This is a strange case in that the property is desirable on its own, it isn’t something “in the way” of another project.

27

I have worked in the appraisal field, for several decades and in several states; it has been my experience, government entities usually pay at the upper end of reasonable market value, and often well above that, for public takings.
I am sure that is not be universal, but I have never seen an exception.
And as fair I know, owners always have resort to court action; if the payment is below market value.
Regardless, I agree, the city should either buy it on the open market, or walk away from the project. No greater public good is been severed in this case.

28

If they’re from without, they shouldn’t care. I’d just go with “Chicago” shorthand. Talking to people from the area, then I’m more specific. I don’t even say I’m “from the South Side.” I say “Southwest side,” because it is a bit different than “South Side,” but “South Side” is technically correct, too, if you’re going with the traditional three-sides simplification of Chicago. Outside of this area, really, who cares? In this case, within this area, of course we’re gonna claim him. It’s the pope!

29

Heck, I live in Indiana for goodness sake but when talking to someone from elsewhere entirely unfamilar with the area I’ll still say “Chicago” because I’m all of 10 miles or so from the state line and that locates me much more accurately than saying “Indiana”. The actual town I live in is small and obscure so that name doesn’t give much practical information, either.

Talking to people in/familiar with the “Greater Chicagoland Area” I’ll be more specific.

30

Why curious? Was the developer somehow psychic to know that the pope would die and who the new pope would be? Were they even aware that it was the childhood home of a Cardinal (and who cares about Cardinals that much)?

Unfortunate only for the person who spent that money and will probably take a bath on what they receive for this property.

31

I’m from the south suburbs, and am currently driving to the east coast. If anyone wants to know where I’m from, I’ll say Chicago. No problem.
As far as Dolton and the Pope’s house goes, I’m sure that there’s no more to it than the village realizing that that one house over there is suddenly worth a shitload of money, so “OK, we’ll just be taking that one, thank you very much”.

32

I’m from Toronto. Although I did live in the city proper before amalgamation, I also lived in North York and Stouffville. Never mind, it was all “Toronto,” as far as I was concerned. Big cities are big because they have lots of suburbs whose names may not necessarily be known to others. Best to answer with the name of the big city, so as to forestall “Where the hell is that?” questions, and carry on with the conversation.

As for the OP’s proposition, I have to ask, why? Do other popes’ childhood homes become—well, whatever this is going to become? A tourist attraction?

33

Well, I believe this is the first time this situation has arisen (nudge nudge) in the good ole US of A, so naturally we’re going to make a blatant, greedy mess of it.

34

I’m fine with just acknowledging that I differ from the most of you as to the designation of Dolton as “Chicago” in news articles (not personal conversation as most of you are suggetsing. Neither of us are going to convince each other. Whch is fine, because we all agree on everything else, right? :wink:

But I also have to admit that futher digging proves me WRONG. It is quite difficult to get really good info, but I gave up after finding that he was BORN in Bronzeviile - a neighborhood n the S side of Chicago, but spent much of his childhood in Dolton, which the article described as “a working class suburb of Chicago.”

I’ve pretty much exhausted my maximum interest in all things popish, but I saw something in the paper suggesting/urging Dolton was renaming the stretch of street after him and might simply protect it with historical designation. Which I think far preferable to buying it.

35

Well, if you want to get super local, the answer to the old-school “What parish?” (as you probably know, we used to identify ourselves geographically by parish perhaps moreso than neighborhood if Catholic), it was St. Mary of the Assumption, which is in the Riverdale neighborhood of Chicago proper – just barely. So several ways to overthink this.

36

Yep - thought I had mentioned that myself (as an ex-Catholic), but apparently hadn’t. Realized I didn’t know the S side parishes, but wondered about catholic schools, of which I at least knew the larger high schools.

It was so weird growing up where EVERYONE was Catholic and voted Dem. And just assuming that was the way it was everywhere.

37

Yeah, really, just zone it to prevent redevelopment and put a big Historic Site marker in front like every other town does for famous former residents.

38

And there is a difference between public benefit and public use. I think both need to be true for eminent domain to be valid. A park or highway, for example. But a few years ago I read about an eminent domain case where a city wanted to tear down some old homes and sell the land to a developer who would build condominiums on it. Lawyers for the city were wanting to use eminent domain to seize the land by claiming it would be a “public benefit,” since it would result in more taxes being paid to the city (by the condo owners). Perhaps. But it certainly wouldn’t be for public use.

39

Encouraging tourism impresses me as a pretty legit aim. But, IMO, that specific goal has been applied awfully tenuously.

Here, tho, where you’ve got millions of gullible cultists likely to show up - especially if they install a water stain of a faint profile or cross or something - I think it legitimate for the community to try to control - and profit from - those visits.

40

Yes. The homes of Benedict XVI, John Paul II and I, and Paul VI all seem to be used as some kind of museum/memorial.