# Use of 'fink' as pejorative in olden times **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748 "2011-01-07T15:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/1 "2011-01-07T15:10:41Z")
Did people typically refer to contemptible people as “finks” back in the old timey days? Background: Saw the movie “Requiem for a Heavyweight” again recently. In one scene, one of the characters (Rooney, I think) is highly upset, and calls (possibly Gleason) someone something like a “dirty, rotten fink!” Seems like in the 1930s “Taxi” movie with James Cagney, he referred to some of the competition as “finks,” also. “Fink” can mean “informer,” but that was not the meaning from these references, but it seemed to have been just an intensive pejorative in these cases. I’m assuming that the Hays Code would have limited the colorfulness of epithets, at least in the case of “Requiem,” but in normal real life in the 1940s – 1950s, if a person were recounting a story involving some bad guy or otherwise contemptible person, would they have referred to that person as a “fink” (where today, it might be MFer or SOB)? ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/2 "2011-01-07T15:18:36Z")
I remember this being used as a pejorative noun that did not imply being an informant during the 60s. I think Steve Allen used the word fairly often on his show. ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/3 "2011-01-07T15:23:23Z")
In the 50’s/60’s a fink was a stool pigeon. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/4 "2011-01-07T15:36:18Z")
In the land of Id, the king is frequently a fink. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/5 "2011-01-07T15:39:42Z")
Going through Pennsylvania Dutcvh country you comonly come across references to “finks” – it’s Penn Dutch dialect version of “finch”, the bird. In art, you’ve got “Distlefinks” = “Thistle Finches”. My own aunt, of Polish background, used to call her pet finches “finks”. I suspect that’s the German pronunciation, and it may have bled over into Poland. So I can easily see the development as informer \> bird who “sings” \> both “stool pigeon” and “fink = finch”. That’s consistent with both what the OP and SDT say about “informer”. To be frank, I can’t recall earlier uses of the term. I haven’t seen the Cagney movie, but I can’t recall any pre-1950s uses of the term, and certainly nothing before the turn of the century. The term “Fink” definitely got a boost in the early sixties as a non-informer pejorative from Ed “Big Daddy” Roth’s cartoon image of the “Rat Fink” that he introduced in the 1950s, and was brought into prominence be cartoons and later plastic models > **[Rat Fink](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Fink)** > > Rat Fink is one of several hot rod characters created by artist Ed "Big Daddy" Roth, one of the originators of Kustom Kulture of automobile enthusiasts. Roth conceived Rat Fink as an anti-hero to Mickey Mouse. Rat Fink is usually portrayed as either green or gray, comically grotesque and depraved-looking with bulging, bloodshot eyes, an oversized mouth with sharp, narrow teeth, and wearing red overalls with the initials "R.F." on them. He is often seen driving cars or motorcycles. > Roth began air... And then Allen Sherman released his parody “Ratt Fink” to the tune of “Ragg Mopp” in 1963: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCTK322Sowc) AFAIK, this was the first “non-informer” use of “fink”, which would’ve been later than the OP suggests. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/6 "2011-01-07T15:56:04Z")
It has historically been used as a general pejorative in _The Wizard of Id_. “The King is a fink!” ETA: **KidChameleon** beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/7 "2011-01-07T15:58:22Z")
As kids in the late 50’s and throughout the 60’s, we knew the “technical” definition of _fink_ as an informant, but almost always used it as a general pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/8 "2011-01-07T16:11:56Z")
The OED says the origin is unknown. Earliest cite is from 1903: > [@OED](#): > > 1903 G. Ade People you Know 60 Anyone who goes against the Faculty single-handed is a Fink. > 1914 L. E. Jackson & C. R. Hellyer Vocab. Criminal Slang 33 Fink,‥an unreliable confederate or incompetent sympathizer. > 1925 Amer. Speech 1 151/2 ‘Dick’ and ‘bull’ and ‘John Law’ have become established as names for the police, while ‘fink’ and ‘stool’ and ‘fly-dick’ denote the plain-clothes men. > 1926 Amer. Mercury Jan. 63/1 Dating from the famous Homestead strike of 1892 is the odious fink. [It] according to one version was originally Pink, a contraction of Pinkerton, and referred to the army of strikebreakers recruited by the detective agency. If the 4th reference is correct (and _The American Mercury_ was run by H.L. Mencken, who knew his language and who was 12, and an avid reader when the Homestead Strike occurred), the original reference meant “strikebreaker.” Whether his proposed etymology is correct or not is undetermined, but that change from “Pink” to “Fink” neatly follows Grimm’s Law, so is quite possible. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/9 "2011-01-07T16:20:04Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Seems like in the 1930s “Taxi” movie with James Cagney, he referred to some of the competition as “finks,” also. “Fink” can mean “informer,” but that was not the meaning from these references, but it seemed to have been just an intensive pejorative in these cases. _Taxi_ also capitalized on Cagney’s fluency in Yiddish; the slang dictionary defines it as an “informer or any untrustworth, reprehensible person” and confirms **CalMeacham** ’s “German word for finch,” going on to say that it was > [@](#): > > presumably imported by German or Yiddish-speaking immigrants, although the exact meaning is obscure. (It appears not to be related to “singing like a canary.”) > Less plausibly, the name of the Pinkerton detective agency has also been suggested as a source. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/10 "2011-01-07T16:32:05Z")
In the 60’s, you might also ramp it up a notch and call someone a **rat fink**. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/11 "2011-01-07T16:43:04Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > In the 60’s, you might also ramp it up a notch and call someone a **rat fink**. [Or a ‘Bat Fink’](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMiDOkzfEZ4) for a positive role model. I guess. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/12 "2011-01-07T17:31:10Z")
> [@](#): > > In the 60’s, you might also ramp it up a notch and call someone a rat fink. See entry #5 above ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/13 "2011-01-08T03:48:53Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The OED says the origin is unknown. Earliest cite is from 1903: > > > [@OED](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by OED > > 1903 G. Ade People you Know 60 Anyone who goes against the Faculty single-handed is a Fink. > > 1914 L. E. Jackson & C. R. Hellyer Vocab. Criminal Slang 33 Fink,‥an unreliable confederate or incompetent sympathizer. > > 1925 Amer. Speech 1 151/2 ‘Dick’ and ‘bull’ and ‘John Law’ have become established as names for the police, while ‘fink’ and ‘stool’ and ‘fly-dick’ denote the plain-clothes men. > > 1926 Amer. Mercury Jan. 63/1 Dating from the famous Homestead strike of 1892 is the odious fink. [It] according to one version was originally Pink, a contraction of Pinkerton, and referred to the army of strikebreakers recruited by the detective agency. > > If the 4th reference is correct (and _The American Mercury_ was run by H.L. Mencken, who knew his language and who was 12, and an avid reader when the Homestead Strike occurred), the original reference meant “strikebreaker.” Whether his proposed etymology is correct or not is undetermined, but that change from “Pink” to “Fink” neatly follows Grimm’s Law, so is quite possible. I’m assuming that was from the 1989 OED or using _fink_ as a verb. There’s an earlier cite from George Ade–1894–“Everybody that’s on to him says he’s a fink…You know what I mean, he’s a stiff, a skate. He drinks and never come up. He’s always layin’ to make a touch, too.” This from the Random House Dic. of American Slang, by Jon Lighter. Mr. Lighter suggest there is very little support for the _Pinkerton_ possibility. In fact, Mr. Lighter supports the German origins proposed by **CalMeacham** above. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/14 "2011-01-08T10:55:43Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > See entry #5 above Whoops ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/15 "2011-01-08T11:21:19Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > In the land of Id, the king is frequently a fink. IIRC, a peasant, apparently named Flavius Ignatius Nathaniel Kranz was once caught carving his initials on the royal coach. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/16 "2011-01-08T12:26:57Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > In the 60’s, you might also ramp it up a notch and call someone a **rat fink**. > mmm Yeah, rat was to fink then what it is now to bastard - ratfink / ratbastard. And don’t forget [Rat Fink](http://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/kid-ratfink_logo_sm.jpg), Mad Magazine’s drag racer. There’s a whole Google page on him [here](http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&as_st=y&biw=984&bih=740&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=cartoon%22rat+fink%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=). You could acually buy models of him. I did pencil drawings of Rat Fink in some of his hot rods when I was fourteen and mailed one to my divorced mother living in California. She mailed it back a few years ago…thought I’d get a kick out of how dorky I was then. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/17 "2011-01-08T13:00:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And don’t forget [Rat Fink](http://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/kid-ratfink_logo_sm.jpg), Mad Magazine’s drag racer. Rat Fink was the brainchild of [“Big Daddy” Ed Roth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Roth), not Mad Magazine. There was some artisitic similarities to the art of [Don Martin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Martin_(cartoonist)), who did appear in Mad Magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/18 "2011-01-08T13:26:54Z")
Yes, it appears I was remiss. Somewhere along the line I got the impression that Rat Fink was drawn my Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/19 "2011-01-08T15:07:31Z")
Thanks all, but. . . . I wasn’t really looking for the etymology or derivation of “fink,” but its use in non-pop-culture conversation. Say, it’s 1960, and two guys are having drinks after work, and one of them says “That low-down, double-crossing fink grabbed my wife’s ass!” or That low-down, double-crossing fink got the job I applied for." I can see how “fink” was a safe pejorative for Hays Code movies, but I wonder about its actual use in real life, as opposed to other available epithets, like “SOB” and “bastard.” And on the sidetrack, let’s also not forget [Rat Pfink a BooBoo](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059637/). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748/20 "2011-01-08T16:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > And don’t forget Rat Fink, Mad Magazine’s drag racer. There’s a whole Google page on him here. You could acually buy models of him. I did pencil drawings of Rat Fink in some of his hot rods when I was fourteen and mailed one to my divorced mother living in California. She mailed it back a few years ago…thought I’d get a kick out of how dorky I was then. > [@](#): > > Rat Fink was the brainchild of “Big Daddy” Ed Roth, not Mad Magazine. There was some artisitic similarities to the art of Don Martin, who did appear in Mad Magazine. Sometimes I get the impression that I’m invisible. This was all covered in post #5 above, too. Of course, I’ve been guilty of not reading the preceding posts, too. Or of missing stuff in them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-fink-as-pejorative-in-olden-times/566748.md?page=2)