# Use of nobility title in British novel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 5, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574 "2019-03-05T15:50:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/1 "2019-03-05T15:50:08Z")
I’m reading a novel, _The Art of Inheriting Secrets_ by Barbara O’Neal. (Can’t recommend it. So far.) I have a question about a subject we’ve covered here before, particularly back when _Downton Abbey_ was in its first run-- inherited titles and forms of address. In this novel, an American woman, Olivia Shaw, has inherited a ginormous, old estate in England called Rosemere. It’s complete with tenant farmers, a ruined abbey, a village, and you get the picture. Her mother inherited it as a girl (there was some provision in the ancient paperwork that females could inherit) and then abandoned it and came to the US when she was a young adult. She never told her American daughter Olivia anything about it or that it even existed. So when Mama dies at the advanced age of 62 (!) and Olivia gets the news that she’s the new Countess of Rosemere, she says WTF? and goes to see the place. Events follow blahblahblah. I’ve only just started it. But here’s the thing: when Olivia arrives, the villagers know all about her and the family, and right off the bat, they call her “Lady Shaw.” I thought that a woman who inherits or who is a daughter of the family that inherits is called “Lady Olivia.” She would be “Lady Shaw” if she married the landed person, amirite? Or should she be “Lady Rosemere”? In _Downton Abbey,_ when Robert Crawley (Earl of Grantham) married Cora (Elizabeth McGovern), she became Lady Grantham (not Lady Cora). But their daughters were Lady Mary, Lady Edith, and Lady Sybil. The only reason it bothers me is that I’ve encountered some small grammatical, usage, and other errors in the book, and they make me grind my teeth. Surely an author in this day of British TV dramas out the wazoo would have researched titles and forms of address? I’m reading it for my book club, and the other members are just as pedantic and nitpicky as I am, so this question will be of interest to them, too. Frankly, I hope I’m wrong and that for some reason “Lady Shaw” is okay, because, as I said, I’ve only just begun _(cue Karen Carpenter)_ and that usage (If it is incorrect) will be like being repeatedly pinched. By my nanny. Set me straight, Dopers. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/2 "2019-03-05T16:11:09Z")
I though Americans can’t inherit British titles at all. Or is this not the case in the UK? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/3 "2019-03-05T16:18:34Z")
Under American law, there’s only a problem with having a foreign title if you hold some sort of government office. And under British law, there’s no problem at all with foreign title-holders (there really couldn’t be any such law, with how much all of the European nobility mix). To the OP, my understanding is that she would be either “Olivia Shaw”, “Lady Olivia”, or “Countess Rosemere”, but then, I’m far from an expert on this. But then, the tenants are probably also far from experts. Maybe they’re addressing her incorrectly because they don’t know how it’s supposed to go, either. It’s only a problem for the novel if someone who should know better (the herald at a formal event, say) addresses her by the wrong title. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/4 "2019-03-05T16:43:51Z")
According to Wikipedia, she would be referred to as “My Lady,” “Your Ladyship,” or “Lady Rosemere.” ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/5 "2019-03-05T17:09:32Z")
So, if I get this right, she has inherited the title in her own name (unusual, but not totally unheard of). In this case, she is _The_ Rosemere of the Lordship(/Barony/whatever) of Rosemere, so that would take precedence over her standard surname. So her correct title would be ‘Lady Rosemere’. Not Shaw. She would also sign herself ‘Rosemere’ (just that name). She may choose to call herself Olivia Shaw if she likes, but her tenants will see her as ‘Lady Rosemere’. As for the first name thing, that’s only for the daughters of the title holder. In this case, she IS the title holder. As for Americans holding British titles, I believe the objection comes from US law, not British. Nobody in the UK is going to object to her moving over here and using the title she inherited. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/6 "2019-03-05T17:15:41Z")
I’m not 100% sure, but I think she should only be Countess Rosemere, or Lady Rosemere, unless someone actually knows her well enough to call her Olivia. Just ‘Lady Olivia’ would imply a daughter of the title holder, and shouldn’t be used for the actual title holder, or the wife of the title holder. Lady Shaw would be for a lower rank- say the wife of a knight. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/7 "2019-03-05T17:34:07Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > So, if I get this right, she has inherited the title in her own name (unusual, but not totally unheard of). > > In this case, she is _The_ Rosemere of the Lordship(/Barony/whatever) of Rosemere, so that would take precedence over her standard surname. So her correct title would be ‘Lady Rosemere’. Not Shaw. She would also sign herself ‘Rosemere’ (just that name). She may choose to call herself Olivia Shaw if she likes, but her tenants will see her as ‘Lady Rosemere’. > > As for the first name thing, that’s only for the daughters of the title holder. In this case, she IS the title holder. > … I haven’t gotten far enough into the book to be able to answer these questions, but I believe she is the title holder. I certainly hope the author knows the answers! :dubious: > [@Filbert](#): > > …Just ‘Lady Olivia’ would imply a daughter of the title holder, and shouldn’t be used for the actual title holder, or the wife of the title holder. Lady Shaw would be for a lower rank- say the wife of a knight. That’s very helpful to know. That explains Lady Mary, Lady Sybil, and Lady Edith. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/8 "2019-03-05T18:00:54Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I haven’t gotten far enough into the book to be able to answer these questions, but I believe she is the title holder. I certainly hope the author knows the answers! :dubious: If she’s not the title holder how could she have inherited everything that goes with the title? > [@](#): > > That’s very helpful to know. That explains Lady Mary, Lady Sybil, and Lady Edith. Just to be clear, these are just courtesies. They don’t sctually own any titles for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/9 "2019-03-05T18:06:34Z")
She would be “Olivia Shaw, Countess of Rosemere,” addressed as “Lady Rosemere,” either as the title-holder herself or as the wife of the Earl of Rosemere. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/10 "2019-03-05T18:33:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If she’s not the title holder how could she have inherited everything that goes with the title? > … I’ll let you know when I get past chapter 2. I’m assuming she is the title holder, but no doubt, complications will ensue in the next 400 or so pages, kwim? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/11 "2019-03-05T20:36:35Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > As for Americans holding British titles, I believe the objection comes from US law, not British. Nobody in the UK is going to object to her moving over here and using the title she inherited. Not even the immigration police? Can anyone who inherits property in the UK just move in permanently? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/12 "2019-03-05T20:46:35Z")
No, inheriting property does not, in itself, confer a right of residence. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/13 "2019-03-05T21:26:59Z")
A small prediction. An Englishman will turn up complete with counter claim to the title. He (or his son) will become Love Interest number 1. Many chapters of shenanigans will ensue before we know if he or the inevitable Love Interest Number Two is the good guy and also Mr Right. I haven’t cheated but now I’m going too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/14 "2019-03-05T21:48:19Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > No, inheriting property does not, in itself, confer a right of residence. Or indeed a title. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/15 "2019-03-05T22:06:14Z")
Man, that would be weird, to be a Peer of the Realm but _not_ allowed permanent residency. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/16 "2019-03-05T22:27:49Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > No, inheriting property does not, in itself, confer a right of residence. > [@SanVito](#): > > Or indeed a title. > … Okay. Y’all will have to explain this. The protagonist inherited the title, yeah, along with hundreds of acres of property occupied by a mansion, a ruined abbey, and farms and gardens cultivated by tenant farmers. It has just been revealed that the property generates 200,000 pounds per year in income (no euros here). So… y’all are saying Olivia might not have the right to live there?? > [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > A small prediction. An Englishman will turn up complete with counter claim to the title. He (or his son) will become Love Interest number 1. Many chapters of shenanigans will ensue before we know if he or the inevitable Love Interest Number Two is the good guy and also Mr Right. > > I haven’t cheated but now I’m going too 🙂 Oh baby, this novel is sooo predictable. Usually our book club avoids ChickLit and reads seriously meaty books. But we’ve just come off some grim political sagas and this piece of fluff is a bit of a relief. If I were a drinking woman… every time Olivia either gazes into someone’s dark eyes or surveys the hedgerows bordering her ancestral lands, I could take a big slug and never get past the first few chapters. Of course, there’s a dark-eyed, cury-haired guy who our heroine at first thinks is too young for her, but it turns out, he’s a well-preserved 34 to her 39-- all-right! _“He smelled like twilight and dew.”_ Gag. A whole lotta eye-rolling goin’ on. I expect they will hit the sheets pretty soon. I like a well-written sex scene as much as the next person, but I have a feeling I’ll have to skim over those when they happen. And they will surely happen. As for the Englishman turning up, Olivia does have an uncle who disappeared 40-ish years ago, and natch, he has a higher claim to the title than Olivia’s mom, being male and all. He’ll probably come blowing in at some point. Maybe wearing a long black cape like Heathcliff. It could happen. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/17 "2019-03-05T22:53:12Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > So… y’all are saying Olivia might not have the right to live there?? Bear in mind that the Duchess of Sussex has to go through the same citizenship process as any random non-EU, non-Commonwealth person and look who she’s married to! When is the novel set? An income of £200k pa probably has always smoothed matters a lot. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/18 "2019-03-05T23:20:20Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Bear in mind that the Duchess of Sussex has to go through the same citizenship process as any random non-EU, non-Commonwealth person and look who she’s married to! Good point! > [@](#): > > When is the novel set? An income of £200k pa probably has always smoothed matters a lot. It’s set today-ish. They’re Skyping and using Instagram, etc. And some of the text is, well…\* text messages\*. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/19 "2019-03-06T00:20:26Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Okay. Y’all will have to explain this. The protagonist inherited the title, yeah, along with hundreds of acres of property occupied by a mansion, a ruined abbey, and farms and gardens cultivated by tenant farmers. It has just been revealed that the property generates 200,000 pounds per year in income (no euros here). So… y’all are saying Olivia might not have the right to live there?? As a matter of property law, of course she has a right to live there. But as a matter of immigration/residency/citizenship law, she must separately petition the government to legally enter the country and to take up temporary or permanent residence. That’s true of anyone who might inherit or purchase or otherwise acquire property in another country. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574/20 "2019-03-06T01:11:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If she’s not the title holder how could she have inherited everything that goes with the title? By being a woman, most commonly. Titles don’t come with property attached, and most titles are inheritable through the male line only. Someone may have a title _and_ property, but if he dies without male heirs, the title dies out, but the property would be inherited by whoever would ordinarily be his heirs, including his widow and any daughters he may have. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-nobility-title-in-british-novel/830574.md?page=2)