# Use of Retired military rank in professional situations **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 27, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215 "2018-04-27T12:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/1 "2018-04-27T12:23:48Z")
Wondered what you thought, or whether you knew any official policy - regarding someone signing themselves as - say - Vice Admiral, U.S. Navy (Ret). My wife teaches at a community college, and received an e-mail that contained the signature block: Joe Schmo President Acme Community College Vice Admiral, U.S. Navy (Ret.) In our minds, this person’s past job has little (if anything) to do with her current job. Listing a prior military position impresses us as an attempt to derive authority from that previous position. I imagine how you describe yourself is pretty much a matter of personal preference. If I wished, I could reach back 4 decades and sign myself as Ridgmoor CC Caddy (Ret.). 😉 And I assume any current employer might have an interest in how one represents oneself. In this case, I imagine the college does not mind whatever aspects of association with military authority… Is there any limit to prior jobs/experiences that are properly included in such professional communication? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/2 "2018-04-27T12:35:37Z")
[Dept. of Defense guidelines.](https://kb.defense.gov/PublicQueries/publicQuestions/FaqsAnswer.jsp?Subject=Use%20of%20Military%20Rank%20by%20Retired%20Service%20Members&FaqID=202&nHit=0) > [@](#): > > All retired personnel are permitted to use their military titles socially and in connection with commercial enterprises. Such military titles must never be used in any manner, which may bring discredit to the Uniformed Services. > > When military titles are used by members to sign their names to documents that pertain to them personally, they must show that they are in a retired status after the grade. Social and business calling cards must reflect the retired status. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/3 "2018-04-27T12:39:13Z")
Guideline needs an editor. “Such military titles must never be used in any manner, which may bring discredit to the Uniformed Services.” This technically prohibits _any_ use of these military titles because it may bring discredit. Should change “which” to “that” or at least delete the comma. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/4 "2018-04-27T12:39:33Z")
I think we had a similar thread a few months ago. But I’ll throw in my own experience: We had a new consultant who joined our company and he started out by signing his correspondence… Pete Moss Consultant CPO, USCG (Ret.) Now, I don’t know why being a CPO (honorable an achievement as it is) would rate this, but we politely asked him why he started doing this. He told us that he was a bit shy about the fact that he didn’t have a college degree. I pointed out that I didn’t sign my correspondence with “B.A., M.A.” after my name. He kept it up for a couple years, even though our company had nothing whatever to do with anything related to normal USCG activities. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/5 "2018-04-27T12:40:47Z")
There’s also a protocol for civilian titles. If you have been elected to office, or appointed to a Federal position that required Senate confirmation, you’re entitled to use “The Honorable” instead of Mr., Ms., Mrs., or whatever, for as long as you want. My opinion is that if you earned such a title – admiral, colonel, the Honorable, doctor, professor, etc – use it how you wish (so long as it isn’t for a scam or whatever). ---
**Author:** ![sjankis630](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ea924/32.png) [@sjankis630](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjankis630)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/6 "2018-04-27T12:41:00Z")
I work at a government contractor near Washington DC and we have several of these people. The large majority of them are no problem, but there are a few who still think they are still back in their old jobs. I am polite, but treat everyone as if we are long out of the war zone. The worst by far are the never military people who kiss up to the former military managers by calling them by their rank. Pathetic! ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/7 "2018-04-27T13:48:10Z")
Thank all - and thanks for the DoD cite. I guess I figure anyone can sign themselves however they want. Personally, I don’t feel that someone’s prior job - in the military or elsewhere - necessarily has much bearing on their conduct of present relations. For better or worse, it suggests to me that the individual might still exhibit certain “military” behaviors - which may be good or not in non-military applications. We go to events at the community college, and periodically peruse the list of donors in the program. I always find it interesting how people choose to describe themselves: Dr. Joe Smith; Mr. and Mrs. Bob Jones; Bob and Suzy Brown; etc. I find it curious that convention would limit “Hon.” to presidential appointees, excluding state/local officials. And, of course, there is the question of PhDs referring to themselves as Dr. Of course, as is the case with pirates, they are “guidelines”! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/8 "2018-04-27T14:06:58Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I find it curious that convention would limit “Hon.” to presidential appointees, excluding state/local officials. It includes appointees, elected positions at pretty much every level, and judges. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/9 "2018-04-27T14:19:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It includes appointees, elected positions at pretty much every level, and judges. Cool. I was curious, because I may have read your post too literally and thought of various positions that might have been excluded. I happen to be an appointed federal administrative law judge, but my position did not require Senate approval. In fact, there is currently a SCt case (Lucia) concerning the nature of ALJs and their appointment. But I can’t recall ever using “Hon.” And if I don’t use it while active, I can’t imagine why I would when retired. I guess the use of prior military rank bothers me a bit, because while it means A LOT while in the service, once you are retired, with respect to civilians you are just another civilian. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/10 "2018-04-27T14:25:58Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I happen to be an appointed federal administrative law judge, but my position did not require Senate approval. In fact, there is currently a SCt case (Lucia) concerning the nature of ALJs and their appointment. But I can’t recall ever using “Hon.” And if I don’t use it while active, I can’t imagine why I would when retired. I know that judges who are Article III (or the state/local equivalent) appointees use “the Honorable,” but I have never heard of any practice relating to the form of address various Article I judges. Interesting question. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/11 "2018-04-27T15:25:58Z")
Is he actually the president of Acme Community College, and does he not have a PhD? Maybe he’s putting that in place of the PhD you’d usually expect a college president to have - “I don’t have a doctorate, but I do have experience that applies to this job” kind of thing. Now if he’s signing birthday cards that way, that’s crazy. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/12 "2018-04-27T15:44:13Z")
The worst I ever encountered, tho it wasn’t in writing, was a woman who introduced herself as _“Mrs. Admiral Snootybritches”_. I was on active duty at the time and her husband was in my chain of command, tho the lesser of the 2 admirals in that group. He was a bit of a jerk, and she seemed well-matched to him. Sorry, sweetie, you don’t get to use your husband’s rank. You’re a wife. You have no standing in the organization. OK, a bit of a hijack, but still, 37 years later, it still irritates me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/13 "2018-04-27T16:04:15Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > The worst I ever encountered, tho it wasn’t in writing, was a woman who introduced herself as _“Mrs. Admiral Snootybritches”_. I was on active duty at the time and her husband was in my chain of command, tho the lesser of the 2 admirals in that group. He was a bit of a jerk, and she seemed well-matched to him. > > Sorry, sweetie, you don’t get to use your husband’s rank. You’re a wife. You have no standing in the organization. > > OK, a bit of a hijack, but still, 37 years later, it still irritates me. 😃 I saw a bit of that sort of behavior during my career. The worst was an O-5’s wife trying to cut the line at the commissary. “My husband is the XO!” A couple of people stepped aside. I refused to do so and could feel her glare burning into my neck as I s-l-o-w-l-y unloaded my cart. The coolest one was when there was a command picnic. Someone’s wife was talking to the CO’s wife, not realizing who she was. She was babbling on about how important her husband’s job was and asked Mrs. CO what her husband’s job was. “Oh, he works in the Admin building.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/14 "2018-04-27T16:09:26Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Is he actually the president of Acme Community College, and does he not have a PhD? Maybe he’s putting that in place of the PhD you’d usually expect a college president to have - “I don’t have a doctorate, but I do have experience that applies to this job” kind of thing. > … My bad. Just looked, and it was signed: Dr. Joe Schmoe President College of Hardknocks Vice Admiral, U.S. Navy (Ret.) ---
**Author:** ![MoonMoon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonmoon/32/2959_2.png) [@MoonMoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoonMoon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/15 "2018-04-27T16:23:22Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Is he actually the president of Acme Community College, and does he not have a PhD? Maybe he’s putting that in place of the PhD you’d usually expect a college president to have - “I don’t have a doctorate, but I do have experience that applies to this job” kind of thing. > > Now if he’s signing birthday cards that way, that’s crazy. Yeah, this is what I was going to say. Academia is ridiculous when it comes hierarchy and titles/prestige. Any honorific or letters anyone has earned are damn sure going in their signature block, whether they’re relevant to the current position or not. Apparently community college isn’t immune to the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/16 "2018-04-27T18:16:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There’s also a protocol for civilian titles. If you have been elected to office, or appointed to a Federal position that required Senate confirmation, you’re entitled to use “The Honorable” instead of Mr., Ms., Mrs., or whatever, for as long as you want. > > My opinion is that if you earned such a title – admiral, colonel, the Honorable, doctor, professor, etc – use it how you wish (so long as it isn’t for a scam or whatever). If you just think of yourself as an honourable person, can you use it anyway? Or any other title for that matter ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/17 "2018-04-27T18:21:35Z")
Maybe the use of “Squire.” 😉 Or maybe a non-military “Col.” - like Tom Parker. When I’ve been to diners near the Mason-Dixon line, I’ve often been called “hon.” I wonder how those nice waitresses knew? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/18 "2018-04-27T20:48:53Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > once you are retired, with respect to civilians you are just another civilian. Legally retirement doesn’t make one a civilian. “Retirement” is a transfer to the Retired Reserve. There’s some key differences down in the weeds between active component retirees and those from the Reserve Components who are not yet eligible to collect retired pay (“grey area retirees”) that I’ll skip. There’s some real meaning behind that reserve status: - Retirees can be involuntarily recalled to active duty. Last fall some Air Force retirees got reminded of that. > [@](#): > > [President Trump signed an executive order Friday allowing the Air Force to recall as many as 1,000 retired pilots to active duty to address a shortage in combat fliers, the White House and Pentagon announced.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/10/20/air-force-recall-many-1-000-retired-pilots-address-serious-shortage/785344001/) - Retirees, who are being paid, are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Policy generally limits actual pursuit of violations committed after retirement to offenses which have clear ties to the military or are clearly discrediting to the service. Incidentally, that is a good reason to be very careful about tying retired rank to anything questionable. “But I retired 20 years ago” is not an excuse that exempts a retiree from a court martial. - Retirees who choose to renounce their US citizenship or are expatriated under federal law are no longer eligible to be in the retired reserve. That means they lose their retirement pay. - Retired officers still hold valid commissions. That means the ability to legally do things like delivering the oath of enlistment. (Which was really useful during my second company command in a small town far from my home. Most enlistments by our supporting recruiter were sworn in by a retired officer who lived nearby.) I just got the latest Army retiree newsletter this week. One of the slogans they like to use is “Soldier for Life.” It’s not just a slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/19 "2018-04-28T00:17:08Z")
Only time I ever use this signature is when posting here in a thread about EMS or 9/11 or related topics. Cartooniverse, NYS EMT ( retired ) In my professional life I am a member of a Guild and so sign my real name with the initials of the Guild at the end. When communicating electronically or in real writing, we are asked to sign our names as such. It’s in the By-laws of the organization. My Mom has been retired from Nursing for over 15 years. It is her earned right to sign her name Toons Mom, R.N. She signs checks and legal documents as such. Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215/20 "2018-04-28T04:26:25Z")
The only time I would expect to see a rank and (Ret) would be from authors of military books or talking heads on TV. There was a sales guy with a PhD in one of the suppliers for my former company, and he’s use that in his signature to everyone’s amusement. Who gives a rat’s ass if you have an advanced degree in history when you’re selling electronics. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-retired-military-rank-in-professional-situations/813215.md?page=2)