# Use of Roman Numerals After Name; How Far Does this Go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800 "2008-06-22T16:33:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/1 "2008-06-22T16:33:54Z")
Good morning, Straightdopers; Evil Was I here. All of us are familiar with the use of Roman numerals after one’s name to indicate repeated uses of the name within a family. With the exception of royalty, popes, and situations such as the George Foreman’s (the boxer) children, who are named (as I understand it) George I, George II, and so forth, how far has the use of Roman numerals been taken generationally within a family. I understand that Tom Cruise (the actor) is a “IV,” being the fourth generation male in his family to have that same name. Is anyone aware of a “V” somewhere? A “VI”? I know the gov’t keeps a database of names in which one can find, for instance, the most popular first name for boys, the frequency of the last name “Olgethorpe,” and so forth. Perhaps there’s a database on the use of Roman numerals? Thanks…EWI. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/2 "2008-06-22T16:38:14Z")
I know a IX and a X. X has a young son who is XI. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/3 "2008-06-22T16:40:02Z")
We’ve done this before [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=427485) . ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/4 "2008-06-22T17:31:06Z")
Is this numeral thing only done in America? We don’t seem to go in for it over here. We have Sr and Jr occasionally but I don’t think I’ve seen a (non-royal) British “Fred Bloggs II” or similar. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/5 "2008-06-22T18:21:22Z")
The eldest living member of the family is “Senior”. The next eldest is “Junior”. After that, it’s “III”, “IV”, “V”, etc. When one dies, everybody below him moves up a notch. In the US, it’s usually limited to a small circle of close relatives who all have the same surname, the same first name, and the same middle name. That’s why the president is not a “Junior”. The father is George H.W. Bush, the son is George W. Bush, and that is sufficient difference to break the chain. It’s less common in Europe, but there are two German princely families (whose names escape me at the moment) who do it. In those families, everyone keeps his roman numeral for life, but they re-start the cycle every century or so. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/6 "2008-06-22T18:32:41Z")
There’s [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Six) guy, who was painted by Rembrandt in the seventeenth century. Every generation after him has named one of their male descendants after him. His great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson, Jan Six XI, is chief of the old masters with Sotheby’s, and recently reveiled that one painting that was up for auction for something like €1500,- was actually a real Rembrandt… ---
**Author:** ![jasonh300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@jasonh300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasonh300)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/7 "2008-06-22T18:33:49Z")
[QUOTE=mbh] When one dies, everybody below him moves up a notch. [/QUOTE] I’ve never seen anyone move up a notch. In the U.S., wouldn’t this require a legal name change and cause a lot of confusion? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/8 "2008-06-22T18:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=mbh] The eldest living member of the family is “Senior”. The next eldest is “Junior”. After that, it’s “III”, “IV”, “V”, etc. When one dies, everybody below him moves up a notch. [/QUOTE] Cite? I’ve never heard of this before. That would make for a series of "II"s or whatever, and the name would never refer to a specific person. I’m almost certain you’re wrong, but I’d be thrilled to see your cite. (I went to highschool with a XXIII.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/9 "2008-06-22T18:52:01Z")
I’m the third, and when my grandfather died, my dad stayed Jr. and I stayed **Shodan** III. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/10 "2008-06-22T18:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > by wikipedia > [Name suffix - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_%28suffix%29#Social) > > There is no hard-and-fast rule over what happens to suffixes when the most senior of the name dies. Do the men retain their titles, or do they all “move up” one? Neither tradition nor etiquette provides a definitive answer (columnist Judith Martin, for example, believes they should all move up, but most agree that this is up to the individual families). Upon the death of John Smith Sr., his son, John Smith, Jr. may decide to style himself John Smith Sr. (causing confusion if his widowed mother and his wife both use the formal style Mrs. John Smith, Sr., and necessitating that his son and grandson change their titles as well) or he may remain John Smith, Jr. for the rest of his lifetime. One advantage of moving up one is that it eliminates the extension of Roman numerals over the generations: i.e., a John Smith III, IV, and V. A disadvantage is that it may cause confusion with respect to birth certificates, credit cards, and the like. In practice it is quite uncommon for families to go beyond “III” in naming children, although there are notable exceptions; The legal name of Tom Cruise, for instance, is actually Thomas Cruise Mapother IV, and the oldest sons of U.S. Senator Jay Rockefeller (legal name John Davison Rockefeller IV) and former Major League Baseball pitcher Orel Hershiser both have “V” as their suffix. Oh and I found that German family: the Princes of Reuss, Junior Line. There used to be a Senior Line, but it died out in 1927. > [@](#): > > by wikipedia > [Principality of Reuss-Gera - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuss_Junior_Line) > The house is unusual for its system of naming and numbering the male members of the family, every one of which has been named “Heinrich” for centuries. While most royal and noble houses give numbers only to the reigning head of the house, and that in the order of his reign, the Reuss Junior Line used a numbering sequence for all male family members which began and ended roughly as centuries began and ended. A consequence of this naming system is that certain heads of the Reuss Younger Line have had the highest numbers attached to their name of all the European nobility. Note also that the male children within a single nuclear family are not numbered sequentially, as all members of the larger family are part of the same numbering system. For example, the sons of Prince Heinrich LXVII Reuss of Schleiz were, in order, Heinrich V, Heinrich VIII, Heinrich XI, Heinrich XIV, and Heinrich XVI ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/11 "2008-06-22T19:00:17Z")
[QUOTE=jasonh300] I’ve never seen anyone move up a notch. In the U.S., wouldn’t this require a legal name change and cause a lot of confusion? [/QUOTE] I had never heard of this until I read a bunch of etiquette books in high school. I’ve still never heard of anyone who actually changed the initials after their name when their grandfather died. In the case of one Third I knew, his grandfather was already dead, and he was still the Third. I think this may be one of those cases where what’s in the etiquette book diverges quite sharply from what is actually practiced (like RSVPs). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/12 "2008-06-22T19:28:50Z")
It should be noted, also, that if a man is named John, for instance, and his son is named Richard, and names HIS son John, the second John is a II, not a Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/13 "2008-06-23T05:48:09Z")
I have a cousin who is William the Fifth. I was hoping his dad would name him something else, but now it looks like we’re stuck with a line of Williams on that side of the family. Maybe the new cousin won’t have any sons. ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/14 "2008-06-23T06:07:54Z")
I’ve heard the “move up a notch” rule my whole life. The Sr., Jr, etc aren’t part of your legal name, after all…no one gets born as a Sr., you see! My dad was a Jr., and he was very, very happy to drop that after his dad died…he’d hated being called Junior his whole life, and while he loved his dad, he wasn’t thrilled with the first name he had, and rarely used it, going by a nickname based on a cartoon character that shared the same last name. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/15 "2008-06-23T06:37:16Z")
I have a business card from a IX, and knew a VII in college. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/16 "2008-06-23T12:52:51Z")
I recall Billy Cotton Jr., a TV executive, being referred to as such to distinguish him from his father, the band leader. He seems to have become Bill Cotton in more recent years, his father having faded from the public memory. Military histories often use Roman numerals for higher formations and it can get pretty difficult to decipher something like LXXXIX Division as you read down the page. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/17 "2008-06-23T14:04:40Z")
There’s a Theodore Roosevelt V (who’s actually the sixth TR in sequence) and a William Howard Taft V. (So far as I can tell there was no William Howard Taft Jr. or William Howard Taft II, though. It went from the president to WHT III.) [QUOTE=mbh] The eldest living member of the family is “Senior”. The next eldest is “Junior”. [/QUOTE] Only if you’re talking about a father/son set. A person named after an uncle, grandfather, or more distant relative can be a “II.” Such as the recent governor of Ohio, Robert Alphonso Taft II. His father was Robert Taft and his grandfather was Robert Alphonso Taft. Because his father was missing the “Alphonso,” he’s a “II,” not a “III.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/18 "2008-06-23T14:14:04Z")
A friend of mine growing up was a “III”. Since his dad was still around and calling him “Walter” would’ve caused some confusion, we called him “Trey”. After he grew up and joined the Navy, he dropped “Trey” and went with “Walter”. Dunno what happens if he has a Walter IV. Maybe we can call him “Quad”. ---
**Author:** ![GillianBoardman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GillianBoardman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GillianBoardman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/19 "2008-06-23T14:27:21Z")
Etiquette books are one thing, practice is another. My son is named for his father, although that was not the plan. Said father and I had always agreed that children deserved their own unique names. However when our youngest child turned out to be a boy after 2 girls, (just as the ultrasound said, but in those days you mostly only had one done, and they reminded you that umbilical cords could easily be mistaken fetal penises), his father begged me in the delivery room to name the child after him. In my weakened condition, i agreed, but i did maintain that our son would be styled Ex Husband Name, II and that is what it says on his birth certificate. I know its not whats done, but I hate, hate, hate, the designation Jr, and especially for those poor souls that actually get called Junior. I knew one who was Junior all his long life, and that is just sad and wrong. So I made very very sure that my son would never ever be called Junior. Instead I saddled him with the nickname Boo, which i never intended the rest of the family to use, but such is life. He’s now 6’5" so I don’t think anyone teases him about it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800/20 "2008-06-23T14:46:47Z")
ISTR reading an article by some manners maven - Emily Post, perhaps, or maybe Miss Manners - who discussed this in some detail. The gist of her article was that: 1. The suffixes Sr., Jr., and III are preferable and should only be used as their wearers are living. So, for example, the father of J. Martin Briggs III would be J. Martin Briggs, Jr.; the father of J. Martin Briggs, Jr. would be J. Martin Briggs, III. If, and only if, J. Martin Sr. was still alive when J. Martin III fathered a son, then said son would be J. Martin Briggs IV. When Sr. were to die, everyone would move up a notch. 2. (And this part kind-of annoys me) Unless you’re from an Old Money family or European aristocracy, you have no right to use suffixes, anyway, as they are reserved for use by the upper classes :rolleyes: . [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-roman-numerals-after-name-how-far-does-this-go/453800.md?page=2)