# Useful Idiots: How many of you still think invading Iraq was a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135 "2006-09-01T23:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/81 "2006-09-03T03:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Yes, we need to figure out what to do now in Iraq, [/QUOTE] But **John** , we already know we need to build a shining city on a hill: > [@](#): > > A vital part of our strategy to defeat the terrorists is to help establish a democratic Iraq, which will be a beacon of liberty in the region and an ally in the global war on terror. > [@](#): > > victory in Iraq would be a powerful triumph in the ideological struggle of the 21st century. From Damascus to Tehran, people will look to a democratic Iraq as inspiration that freedom can succeed in the Middle East, and as evidence that the side of freedom is the winning side. This is a pivotal moment for the Middle East. The world is watching – and in Iraq and beyond, the forces of freedom will prevail. [Sep 2 radio address](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060902.html) [Aug 31 speech](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/08/20060831-1.html) We just have to persevere for a few more years, and Utopia will be ours. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/82 "2006-09-03T03:32:16Z")
[Aside] Oh, oh. > **[Spain to face Greece without Gasol](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2006/09/03/basketball/spain-to-face-greece-without-gasol/)** > > SAITAMA -- Can Spain replace Pau Gasol’s productivity? > [@](#): > > Greek team members celebrate after their 101-95 victory over the U.S. on Friday in the FIBA World Championship semifinal at Saitama Super Arena. Greece plays Spain in the title game on Sunday but the Spaniards will be missing Pau Gasol > > … > > Can Spain replace Pau Gasol’s productivity? > > That’s the big question entering Sunday’s FIBA World Championship title game against Greece. > > X-rays reveal that Gasol, a center, sustained a fractured metatarsal in his left foot in the fourth quarter of Spain’s 75-74 semifinal win Friday over Argentina. He will not play Sunday. > > “I will try to do what I can for my colleagues but what really hurts is that I will not be physically on the court with them to do my part,” Gasol told reporters Saturday. > > “I am confident the rest of the team can go on to complete the job without me. If they go on to take gold I will not be able to contain myself.” > > If Gasol can’t step onto the floor for the 7:30 p.m. game at Saitama Super Arena, Spain will need other players to fill a big void. His younger brother, Marc, a 213-cm, 21-year-old, has been his primary backup this tournament. Well, even so, good luck to the Red Fury, get those Greeks! [/Aside] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/83 "2006-09-03T03:32:32Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Well, if you **knew** the outcome, of course you would. [/quote] And yet some people still think it was a good idea… > [@](#): > > The question that I think is pertinent is: if you had the exact same situation (without a time machine) would you make the same decision again? You make the best decision you can with the information you have. Sometimes you will be right, sometimes you will be wrong. I don’t think we’ve figured out a way around that one yet. Both questions are pertinent. You want to wave away one question simply because there is another pertinent one. I suppose if the US was in unanimous agreement that the war was a bad idea, then the question would be moot. And yes, there are still supports of the war on this board, so it’s not one of those strawman type questions that no one on this board is making. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/84 "2006-09-03T03:33:30Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] As for my Mom, I’ll never forget her lovely scent among many, many other things. She passed away January 20th after an agonizing seven month long bout with colon-cancer. Talk about feeling bitter. [/QUOTE] [backwards Seinfeld reference]Well the Jerk Store called and they’re out of you![/bSr] ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/85 "2006-09-03T03:37:59Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] As for my Mom, I’ll never forget her lovely scent among many, many other things. She passed away January 20th after an agonizing seven month long bout with colon-cancer. Talk about feeling bitter. [/QUOTE] I lost both parents to cancer. I was given no quarter in many threads. Don’t expect any. nature of the beast, and all that. But I will offer my condolences. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/86 "2006-09-03T03:51:13Z")
> [@](#): > > “From Damascus to Tehran…” – the President “From Natchez to Mobile, From Memphis to St. Joe…” – Johnny Mercer ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/87 "2006-09-03T04:17:39Z")
**Red** , for the life of me, I can’t figure out why you chose this moment to share this with me. “Yo mamma” references are a staple. I’m acutely embarassed and perplexed as to why I had such a load coming to me. Seriously, _companero_, WTF? For the record, my own mom passed about a month ago. It would never have _occured_ to me to mention to anyone here, in any context whatsoever. I don’t get it, pal, I just don’t get it. I’m inclined to give it the “it never happened” treatment. With your concurrence, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/88 "2006-09-03T04:30:58Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I don’t get it, pal, I just don’t get it. [/QUOTE] It’s possible he didn’t get that “elderberries” is a Monty Python reference. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/89 "2006-09-03T04:36:13Z")
Didn’t think of that. Hope yer right. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/90 "2006-09-03T04:39:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] It’s possible he didn’t get that “elderberries” is a Monty Python reference. [/QUOTE] Oh dear God. Imagine the meltdown at the first mention of a hamster. We’re all in for it! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/91 "2006-09-03T04:44:07Z")
I vote to change RedFury’s user name to red retread. He’s always spouting the same old shit in the same rude, confrontational manner. No, I don’t have to open his threads or read his posts. I stopped doing so months ago. Until tonight, which happens to be an evening I’m finding to be particularly enjoyable. Most of the important stuff, like which teams won today’s college football games, turned out to suit me. I just needed one more little snicker of a laugh to bring this night into the realm of perfection. Checked out The Dope, and sure enough, this place never fails me. A Red Retread post to complete the evening. 😃 The retread dude needs to develop some divergent interests or he’s gonna have a stroke. Pretty soon I’m thinkin’. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/92 "2006-09-03T04:54:46Z")
/to **jcom** Been sippin’ lemonade and rollin’ that tree? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/93 "2006-09-03T05:32:30Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] “From Natchez to Mobile, From Memphis to St. Joe…” – Johnny Mercer [/QUOTE] I like Bobby Bland’s version of this one the best. It’s one of my all-time favorite tunes. Lemonade, no, not tonight. I gots me a bottle of Maker’s Mark and some Coke-cola. Rolled the tree and got back home at a reasonable hour. Damn fine evenin’! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/94 "2006-09-03T05:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] **John** , In all honesty, I’ve never been able to figure out just what your politics _are_. On the one hand, as far as I can recall, you were never gong-ho about this whole misadventure – quite the opposite in fact. But then you turn right around and become one of the most fervid Bush apologists on Board. 😕 Best I can figure, is that I can’t figure Libertarians at all. You guys seem to be all over the place, often contradicting each other – never mind the rest of us. [/QUOTE] Here’s the thing. A lot of us who aren’t supportive of Bush still call bullshit when someone spouts out something that we don’t think jives with all the facts. However, around here one gets called an “appologist” unless one falls in line with every accusation hurled at Bush, whether it’s true or not or whether it makes sense or not. Frankly, it’s rather tiresome-- especially when it comes from the local morons . Also, I’m a scientist by training, and I’m used to dealing with facts and going out of my way to avoid my preconceived ideas and personal prejudices. If I can see another hypothesis that explains the facts, then I’m not going to accept claims that “the only reason Bush could be doing this is…” As for Libertarians (or small “l” libertarians), we’re generally anti-war. Many of us would prefer the US had a lower profile in the world in general, not just on issues related to the M.E. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/95 "2006-09-03T13:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] **Red** , for the life of me, I can’t figure out why you chose this moment to share this with me. “Yo mamma” references are a staple. I’m acutely embarassed and perplexed as to why I had such a load coming to me. Seriously, _companero_, WTF? For the record, my own mom passed about a month ago. It would never have _occured_ to me to mention to anyone here, in any context whatsoever. I don’t get it, pal, I just don’t get it. I’m inclined to give it the “it never happened” treatment. With your concurrence, of course. [/QUOTE] Raw spot for me, **'luc** – kneejerk response. Of course you hadn’t known, I don’t believe I’d said anything before. And no, afraid the reference went right over my pate. Apologies and my condolences to you as well. * * * **duffer** , I do not ask or give any quarter when it comes to this topic. But as I said, just seeing my Mom mentioned brought back some painful memories, that’s all. Sorry for you losses too. * * * [QUOTE=GIGObuster] [Aside] Oh, oh. > **[Spain to face Greece without Gasol](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2006/09/03/basketball/spain-to-face-greece-without-gasol/)** > > SAITAMA -- Can Spain replace Pau Gasol’s productivity? Well, even so, good luck to the Red Fury, get those Greeks! [/Aside] [/QUOTE] Must confess I was more than a bit queasy when I woke at 6 this AM to watch the game. Needless to say, Pau is the heart and soul of our team. And man-o-man did his teammates step-up for him 2day! Spanked the tar out of Greece by 23 POINTS! We’re GOLDEN! Pau still got the MVP – deservedly so IMO, for without him there wouldn’t have been a medal match. Good day to be alive. * * * **John Carter of Mars**. I now understand the “Mars” reference in your moniker. Typing with your anus is certainly not a very earthly condition. * * * Fair enough, **John** , but I still feel you’ve taken a contrarian POV even when the facts didn’t support you. Neither here nor there at this point. And yes, that much I knew about libertarians – I often browse the Lew Rockwell site. * * * [QUOTE=magellan01] I’m not sure what this means. If it means that given how things have turned out do you wish we could turn back the clock and not have gone? Sure. Absolutely. But is that reallysaying anything at all? Take football: 4th and goal on the one inch line. Your down five, ten seconds left. You call a quarterback sneak, they stop you. KNowing what you know about the outcome, was the play you called a good idea. Statistics would say absolutely. If you had a chance to replay the down would you run a different play. Well, if you **knew** the outcome, of course you would. But that’s just a lot of mental masturbation. The question that I think is pertinent is: if you had the exact same situation (without a time machine) would you make the same decision again? You make the best decision you can with the information you have. Sometimes you will be right, sometimes you will be wrong. I don’t think we’ve figured out a way around that one yet. [/quote] Simply amazing. “The same situation” was pretty much proven to be Bushit _then_ – the amount of debunking that went on at the time was overwhelming and coming from andless ources, both American and international. It’s simply been comfirmed since. IOW, you went to war on a pack of lies and seeing the results of your actions, I am miffed that some of you still stand behind said decision. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/96 "2006-09-03T13:29:48Z")
[aside] **RedFury, duffer, elucidator** , please accept my condolences on the loss of your parents. I’m watching my own mother crumble away through the ravages of age, faling physically but not mentally, and in pain that can’t be medicated away (though not, thankfully, from cancer). Lost my father several years ago. It’s a grief that grabs you especially hard at times when you least expect it, I’ve found. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/97 "2006-09-03T14:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] …Apologies… [/QUOTE] _Por nada_. It never happened. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/98 "2006-09-03T21:30:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] However, around here one gets called an “appologist” unless one falls in line with every accusation hurled at Bush, whether it’s true or not or whether it makes sense or not. [/quote] Cite? > [@](#): > > Frankly, it’s rather tiresome-- especially when it comes from the local morons . > [@](#): > > Also, I’m a scientist by training, and I’m used to dealing with facts and going out of my way to avoid my preconceived ideas and personal prejudices. Someone who is truly interested above all, and truly experienced for that matter, in obtaining the facts and considering hypotheses before passing judgment does not congratulate himself on his superior ability for doing so. Your own grasp of the facts, and your own interest in careful assessment before drawing conclusions, has been demonstrated as flawed so many times here, in so many ways, that such a claim from you is extremely foolish. Your claim above is identical to that of a “creation scientist”, I hope you realize. > [@](#): > > If I can see another hypothesis that explains the facts, then I’m not going to accept claims that “the only reason Bush could be doing this is…” Fine. But the rest of us, recognizing our mere humanity as well as Bush’s, not yet having achieved your exalted _uebermenschheit_, are forced to depend on reasonability as well as reason in understanding human behavior. If there is no other _reasonable_ way to understand Bush’s behavior, we feel no compunction in saying so. You, though, will fight to the last trench, however remote it may be, to resist accepting that other people understood the situation before you did. That is, when you’re not simply taking a contrary position for the mere fun of argumentation, trollishness which you have engaged in recently in increasing frequency. The mindset that asserts a superior grasp of facts, and ability to understand them, that disparages any reasoning that one does not share, who insist on reasonability as well as reason, and even dismisses those who dare to point out one’s unreasonability as “morons”, is the mindset that got us \*into \* this mess in the first place. Your sharing of that mindset is part of the source of the problems you face here. **Jodi** , perhaps you could enlighten us all and tell us what you \*do \* get upset about, what problems you \*do \* think the world has and what \*should \* be done about it. GOP talking points we already have, thanks, but the suggestion that those who \*do \* recognize problems and \*do \* want to fix them should instead join you in wanking is a new twist, worth some Pit Points at least. You need to understand, but obviously yet do not, that not everyone who hates what Bush has done is a “Bush-hater”. It is highly possible not to hate but to pity him for being so out of his depth, and to pity us for what the consequences have been, while still harboring, well, hatred for what he has _done_. But the casual dismissal of anyone who questions the talking points you swallow for breakfast as mere “haters” does nothing to help anyone, least of all you. either fight ignorance or add to one’s reputation for thoughtfulness. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/99 "2006-09-03T21:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Cite? [/QUOTE] I’ve seen it often enough. It is clear to me that **John Mace** is no fan of Bush, yet he is accused of being a Bush supporter quite frequently, simply because he defends him against a particular accusation. For the record, I have a hard time saying Dubya’s name without gagging. > [@](#): > > Your own grasp of the facts, and your own interest in careful assessment before drawing conclusions, has been demonstrated as flawed so many times here, in so many ways, that such a claim from you is extremely foolish. Cite? I don’t agree with eveything he says, but I tend to read his posts for their well thought out, analytical approach. He has also contributed greatly in a thread that Changed My Mind\* about the teaching of evolution. Yes, it can happen here on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/100 "2006-09-03T22:19:37Z")
Well thought and better said, **Elvish**. But, if I can impose on a friendship longstanding, I will quibble. A trivial thing, perhaps, but that’s the trouble with quibbles… I take **John** at his word. It is enough, I think, that we have points of agreement. Can’t expect him to love us. We’re not really the best sort, you and I, riff-raff, radicals, and scofflaws. Mustn’t expect too much, libertarians find our lot… a bit extreme. And, well…we are, aren’t we? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135.md?page=6)