# Useful Idiots: How many of you still think invading Iraq was a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135 "2006-09-01T23:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/101 "2006-09-03T22:26:49Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] It’s Friday night, so I’m wearing a fez, a dog collar, a cone-breasted bustier, a tutu, chaps, and swim fins. _Of course_. [/QUOTE] Copycat. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/102 "2006-09-03T23:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] libertarians find our lot… a bit extreme. And, well…we are, aren’t we? [/QUOTE] Compared to \*those \* Ayn-Rand-idolizing ideologues? They’re as bad as the folks who know history and political theory only from Robert Heinlein novels (well, come to think of it, they’re largely the \*same \* people, actually). I’d rather stay part of the “reality-based community”, thanks. **Contrapuntal** , if **John** has helped you accept the factual reality of evolution over the religious doctrine of creationism, that’s great, and my congratulations. I almost never even open religion threads, or their stepchildren, creationism and abortion threads, so apparently I’ve missed him being reasonable. I only run across him almost exclusively on political threads, where I stand by my observations. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/103 "2006-09-03T23:59:26Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] **Contrapuntal** , if **John** has helped you accept the factual reality of evolution over the religious doctrine of creationism, that’s great, and my congratulations. [/QUOTE] He helped me understand about the importance of the _teaching_ of evolution, not the _fact_ of evolution. Isn’t that what I said? Where did you see anything about creationism? Are you always this sloppy in your interpretations of posts? > [@](#): > > I only run across him almost exclusively on political threads, where I stand by my observations. And I stand by my request for a cite. Similar to your request for a cite from him. Or do you consider your post to be your cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bob55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bob55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob55)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/104 "2006-09-04T00:54:10Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] [ul] [li]No WMD’s[/li] [li]No ties to AQ[/li] [li]Innumerable deaths, countless numbers of maimed . Iraqis, Americans. Anyone else in the territory[/li] [li]A perfect training ground for terrorists and extremists[/li] [li]Complete collapse of a stable nation into total disarray.[/li] [li]USA’s reputation worldwide down the proverbial toilet.[/li] [li]“Democracy” inside the GreenZone. Anarchy countrywide.[/li] [li]Real democracy would bring pro-Iran Shiites into power, thus increasing their already growing gun-point Theocracy nationwide.[/li][/ul] So then, Useful Idiots, what say you? Halliburton stock been treating you well? EndTimes coming to a head? Or can we simply see right hrough your ears? [/QUOTE] I love it when people just post things without knowing any of the facts. Yes there were WMDs found, yes they had ties to AQ, no deaths weren’t “inumerable”, the terrorists/extremists you claim are training there are usually imported, the nation did not collapse, the USA never had a good reputation in the world, it is not anarchy, and we’re setting up a republic not a democracy. But since you didn’t cite any of your claims, neither will I. Yes, I still think invading Iraq was a good idea. And no, you’re not cool for calling people on the internet useful idiots. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/105 "2006-09-04T01:20:03Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] I love it when people just post things without knowing any of the facts. [/quote] You were saying? > [@](#): > > Yes there were WMDs found, yes they had ties to AQ, no deaths weren’t “inumerable”, the terrorists/extremists you claim are training there are usually imported, the nation did not collapse, the USA never had a good reputation in the world, it is not anarchy, and we’re setting up a republic not a democracy. But since you didn’t cite any of your claims, neither will I. That is some mighty Kool-Aid! > [@](#): > > Yes, I still think invading Iraq was a good idea. And no, you’re not cool for calling people on the internet useful idiots. Ok, you are a useless one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/106 "2006-09-04T01:43:43Z")
Still, its an impressive accomplishment, swallowing all those talking points. Seen guys choke down on or two of them without looking greenish. Saw a guy on Fear Factor, managed to het 4 of them down, but he puked on his shoes. But all of them? Very, very impressive. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/107 "2006-09-04T02:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] I love it when people just post things **without knowing any of the facts.** Yes there were WMDs found, yes they had ties to AQ, no deaths weren’t “inumerable”, the terrorists/extremists you claim are training there are usually imported, the nation did not collapse, the USA never had a good reputation in the world, it is not anarchy, and we’re setting up a republic not a democracy. But since you didn’t cite any of your claims, neither will I. Yes, I still think invading Iraq was a good idea. And no, you’re not cool for calling people on the internet useful idiots. [/QUOTE] – Bolding mine. I appreciate your reply, I really do. For you’re eactly the kind of “Useful Idiot” I had in mind when I started this thread. Hell, as **'luc** says, I’ve never seen anyone eat so much shit all at once. Here’s some real food instead: > [@](#): > > Yes there were WMDs [Iraq Survey Group](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Survey_Group) > [@](#): > > …yes they had ties to AQ [Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda) > [@](#): > > no deaths weren’t “inumerable” [We don’t do body counts](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/05/03/MN98747.DTL) > [@](#): > > the terrorists/extremists you claim are training there are usually imported [Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground War Created Haven, CIA Advisers Report](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html) > [@](#): > > the nation did not collapse [Pentagon Issues Grim Iraq Report ‘Conditions that could lead to civil war exist,’ military analysts tell Congress. Deaths and injuries now exceed 3,000 a month.](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-usiraq2sep02,1,5058112.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage&track=crosspromo) > [@](#): > > the USA never had a good reputation in the world [Bush Hated By Wide Margin Worldwide](http://www.soonerthought.com/archives/1079) > [@](#): > > it is not anarchy Yes it is: [New Leadership Crisis as Iraq Descends into Anarchy](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0303-02.htm) > [@](#): > > we’re setting up a republic not a democracy You’re “setting up” diddly-squat. Cite for the “republic” part anyway. > [@](#): > > But since you didn’t cite any of your claims, neither will I. I honestly didn’t think there were people as ignorant as you out there. At any rate, claims fully cited, facts supported with hard evidence. Ready to counter any Bushit you may come up with, Freeperboy. Sadly, my pet-rock has a better grasp of reality that you do. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/108 "2006-09-04T02:53:33Z")
**ETF** , Thank you. Trust me, I feel for you. Nothing worse than watching a loved one whither away while feeling totally helpless and knowing there’s no hope. All the best. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/109 "2006-09-04T02:54:30Z")
And likely better company. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/110 "2006-09-04T02:56:44Z")
PS-Yes. One of these days I’ll actually get around to spell-checking my posts, and/or even previewing them. Don’t hold your collective breath though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/111 "2006-09-04T02:59:09Z")
The Collective does not hold its breath, Comrade Furry. The Collective holds _your_ breath! Yours in Trotsky, **e.** ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/112 "2006-09-04T03:15:11Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] The Collective does not hold its breath, Comrade Furry. The Collective holds _your_ breath! Yours in Trotsky, **e.** [/QUOTE] Ever tire of being right? Or should that be “left”? Away I must. Nite, kids! ---
**Author:** ![Bob55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bob55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob55)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/113 "2006-09-04T04:39:14Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] I honestly didn’t think there were people as ignorant as you out there. At any rate, claims fully cited, facts supported with hard evidence. Ready to counter any Bushit you may come up with, Freeperboy. Sadly, my pet-rock has a better grasp of reality that you do. [/QUOTE] In our plays we reveal what kind of people we are. I know that we are all hidden behind the anonymity of the internet, but please don’t use that as an excuse to say things that would not be acceptable in a face to face conversation about the matter. WMDs: [Sarin, Mustard Gas in Iraq](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html) AQ+Iraq ties [From Bill Clinton](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040624-112921-3401r.htm) Iraq Body Count: [~45k Iraqis](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) Government: [Representative parliament, based on British models](http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7256C523-473D-47D2-AC05-61AF4B8B230F.htm) As for the state of Iraq (terrorism, anarchy), first our job is not done, and maybe this first government won’t work out, but look at the Articles of Confederation. Second, I have family serving in Iraq so get front-line reports and am told that the majority of Iraqis love us, and while you may not, they fully support the idea of being free from tyranny. I still think that America needs to protect itself from potential aggressors around the world, and while invading a country should be the last resort, occasionally (when they prevent the UN weapons inspectors from doing their jobs) you have to follow through on it. It is better to nip these things in the bud. I thought the world learned this lesson with Hitler, but apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/114 "2006-09-04T06:51:57Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] In our plays we reveal what kind of people we are. I know that we are all hidden behind the anonymity of the internet, but please don’t use that as an excuse to say things that would not be acceptable in a face to face conversation about the matter. WMDs: [Sarin, Mustard Gas in Iraq](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html) [/quote] You are really a useless idiot, that was discussed several times already in GD, the consensus: those were the degraded WMD from the previous gulf war, used only for the explosives in the head, the implication was that is very likely the terrorists did not know what they were using. Not the weapons we supposedly did go to war for. > [@](#): > > AQ+Iraq ties > [From Bill Clinton](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040624-112921-3401r.htm) Already discussed too, very doubtful it occurred. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html) > [@](#): > > Iraq Body Count: > [~45k Iraqis](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) Other reports show a higher number. And unofficial reports like that are made because: “We don’t do body counts” General Tommy Franks, US Central Command > [@](#): > > Government: > [Representative parliament, based on British models](http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7256C523-473D-47D2-AC05-61AF4B8B230F.htm) About the only thing you seem to be correct as finding a cite that points to a Republic, but since the USA already is on record on having the power to refuse the first choices the Shiites had for the government, it is clear that they are not independent at all, it remains a charade until America leaves. > [@](#): > > As for the state of Iraq (terrorism, anarchy), first our job is not done, and maybe this first government won’t work out, but look at the Articles of Confederation. Wrongo, look at the History of India. > [@](#): > > Second, I have family serving in Iraq so get front-line reports and am told that the majority of Iraqis love us, and while you may not, they fully support the idea of being free from tyranny. When at any Iraqi location a military tank or humbee is destroyed, it creates an impromptu celebration when the troops leave, I have to doubt that Iraqis will tell us what they really think in front of armed presence. > [@](#): > > I still think that America needs to protect itself from potential aggressors around the world, and while invading a country should be the last resort, It was not you dunder head. > [@](#): > > occasionally (when they prevent the UN weapons inspectors from doing their jobs) you have to follow through on it. It is better to nip these things in the bud. I thought the world learned this lesson with Hitler, but apparently not. The inspectors were finding Saddam was bluffing, time was running out all right, people were beginning to realize the intelligence was shitty and the support for the invasion would then have faltered, invasion then occurred, but not for the propaganda reasons stated. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/115 "2006-09-04T07:23:20Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Again, based on the the intelligence available at the time. We **know** some of it was wrong now, but no one **knew** it to be wrong then. [/QUOTE] 1/ When you say “no one” do you mean this figuratively ie do you actually mean “no one better informed than Joe Sixpack” or perhaps “only a minority” or something like that? Or do you mean this literally? 2/ When you say “knew” what standard are you applying? Do you mean “knew absolutely” or what? I’ve had this debate before, and it’s as well to be certain what you are alleging before I start in on you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/116 "2006-09-04T07:53:03Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] 1/ When you say “no one” do you mean this figuratively ie do you actually mean “no one better informed than Joe Sixpack” or perhaps “only a minority” or something like that? Or do you mean this literally? 2/ When you say “knew” what standard are you applying? Do you mean “knew absolutely” or what? I’ve had this debate before, and it’s as well to be certain what you are alleging before I start in on you. [/QUOTE] Thank you for asking for clarification. I wish people would do this more. That said, I meant both statements in the absolute sense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/117 "2006-09-04T13:17:53Z")
So what \*does \* a civilized nation do when it doesn’t “absolutely” \*know \* the facts? Start the war anyway, huh? Before the people trying to \*get \* the facts can finish finding that the facts don’t support starting a war, that is. That’s what happened, though. There is no defense of that, no acceptable excuse for it. You were fooled by people appealing to your baser instincts, not your nobler ones. Many others who did so have recognized and admitted it by now, though. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/118 "2006-09-04T14:07:40Z")
Basically, yep, what Elvis1ves said. Plus, you seem keen to emphasise the qualification on your contention, namely that _no one absolutely knew_ that this evidence was false. Do I take it that you accept the corollary ie at least some people had a pretty fair idea? ---
**Author:** ![Bob55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bob55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob55)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/119 "2006-09-04T15:39:43Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] You are really a useless idiot [/QUOTE] Sorry, I’m sure you had some great points but I stopped reading here. I don’t respond to personal attacks, and in my opinion when you yell or attack someone you’ve lost the argument, even if it is The Pit. Please learn to discuss ideas logically, not personally. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135/120 "2006-09-04T16:47:04Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] Sorry, I’m sure you had some great points but I stopped reading here. I don’t respond to personal attacks, and in my opinion when you yell or attack someone you’ve lost the argument, even if it is The Pit. Please learn to discuss ideas logically, not personally. [/QUOTE] Who told you that I’m replying just to you? As you seem to have some remaining intelligence (An Idiot BTW in the original geek meant a person who is willfully ignorant of their civil duty) you are using it only **to keep information already debunked in previous threads in the SDMB**. That does not deserve praise but contempt, specially in the pit, and my reply goes to people that do not depend on propaganda. Speaking of personal attracts, the OP thinks it is high time to consider spoutings like yours to be personal attracts. (This is the only thing I do criticize the OP for, it was confrontation from the beginning, but it is silly for anyone not to realize that he/she/it going in was going to encounter no holds ultimate fighting, IOW your demands to remain polite to the targets of the OP are beyond silly) So now is the time to point to all (Yes this is a message board to many others, not just to you silly) that I think fellows like \*\*Bob55 \*\* gave his support to invade Iraq under evidence that proved to be false, many people like me knew that in reality there were serious doubts on the urgency and even the reliability of the information, coupled with the fact that the true coalition that we got in Afghanistan saw the evidence and concluded there were serious doubts to justify an invasion and I have to conclude that the administration had other reasons to invade unrelated to the war on terror. Now that it is evident that the administration mismanaged the occupation on top of all that, it is clear that the bozos in power that happen to be Republicans will not move a muscle to seriously investigate what did go wrong, all because of political reasons. Party before country. It is worse than a personal insult, it is insulting everyone in America, even to **Bob55**. I see no hope on him turning to protest to the apparatus that mislead him and many others. “In our plays we reveal what kind of people we are” Indeed, this reply goes to the ones that do give some serious thought to the issue and not to show that they are only a mindless tool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/useful-idiots-how-many-of-you-still-think-invading-iraq-was-a-good-idea/371135.md?page=7)