# Uses for Tor and Darkwebs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 16, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505 "2013-02-16T15:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/1 "2013-02-16T15:14:19Z")
After reading Cecil’s recent article on Tor and Darkwebs, I decided to check it out. As promised, it appears full of drugs, script kiddies, and child porn. I also saw a bunch of revolutionary/anarchist/criminal wannabes who publish criminal TTPs. Anyone with any LEO experience can tell these are, for the most part, blatant frauds. I’ve learned some interesting things about anonymity and how bitcoins work, etc. I’m interested in learning more on this subject, from a private or business security point of view. It appears the real strength of Tor and other anonymity clients is if the user already has a recipient in mind for their communication. Just browsing for public-facing information, like the Clear Web… not so much. So my question is: If a person has no interest in the afforementioned drugs / child porn / deviant subcultures, what is there on Tor worth seeing and doing? * * * LINK TO COLUMN: [How can I access the deep, dark Web? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3092/how-can-i-access-the-deep-dark-web) ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/2 "2013-02-16T22:47:35Z")
It’s a 2nd Amendment thing. The dark web offers protection against a tyrannical government by providing a method of communication free of prying eyes. It allows one to organize protests, move weapons and pass on other information that outside forces are screening for. Much of Arab Spring was organized on the dark web. Wikileaks was dark web. _“well gee, that’s great! What about all that nasty stuff like drugs / child porn / deviant subcultures? I’m not in favor of that!”_ Are gun owners pro-murderous rampage? No, they’re not. But in order to have these freedoms, you must accept that bad people will occasionally use them. The vast majority of users on the dark web are upstanding citizens. Some of them are casting off the chains of oppression. A lot of them are just looking for a good buzz. A minority are trading blurry photographs from the Sixties when child pornography was legal. If you support the good uses, you have to accept the bad uses. _But my government isn’t tyrannical. I don’t need to conduct conversations in secret!_ And nobody is breaking down your door with the intention of setting your family on fire. But we must be prepared. The dark web must exist and be tested daily. The code must be tested and tuned so that when the time comes, we’re locked, loaded, and ready for action. What’s worth doing there right now? Haven’t the foggiest idea, but I’m secure in the fact that a bunch of deviants are on there making the world safe for democracy and you should be too. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/3 "2013-02-17T00:17:48Z")
Well, I’m not arguing that Tor shouldn’t exist. That wasn’t the point of my post. I guess a better way of putting it is: What information can I browse and access, aside from the hacker/porn/drug stuff? ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/4 "2013-02-17T00:58:26Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/5 "2013-02-17T01:14:37Z")
Sorry. I asked in my last post for a link, then found it before my edit window had closed. So I tried to supply it, and ended up shoving somethng else inside the HTML tags, which resulted in a pretty strange rerouting. If I hae time, I’ll explore that further. In any event, [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3092/how-can-i-access-the-deep-dark-web) is the link, in case anyone is looking for it. As to accessing it… I don’t understand how things like stolen credit card lists or child porn still can exist out there with all the keyword searching being done by the government. Beyond that, even if they can’t track you down if you know what you are doing, how can the person in search of such illegal things be sure who or what the other party represents that they are buying from. I know nothing about bitcoins, so some research is ahead of me. But I still find this pretty murky myself. But if “they” have solved the problem of payment, the world could be your oyster, assuming what you want is illegal through normal channels. Is there a place or a way for someone to do a search on the deep dark web to find out just what exactly IS out there for one to peruse? And can you make such an inquiry without landing yourself in prison? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/6 "2013-02-17T16:41:05Z")
TOR, Freenet and other darkwebs are useful to have around as part of the continuous cat-and-mouse between surveillance and anonymity. And FWIW, “Anonymous” _do_ attempt to police what they consider the undesirable aspects thereof, for instance [attacking and taking down CP sources](http://www.informationweek.com/security/attacks/anonymous-attacks-child-pornography-webs/231901499). > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Beyond that, even if they can’t track you down if you know what you are doing, how can the person in search of such illegal things be sure who or what the other party represents that they are buying from. Word of “mouth” from trusted contacts, I suppose, nothing in the way of assurances they did not have under the old-school black market, except that in this case they interact while riding on some innocent bystander’s unprotected WiFi, as opposed to having to go into a dark alley somewhere. As would be expected, the guides and roadmaps for the Hidden Webs are, duh, Hidden but they do exist. They just are not going to let us casual dilettantes simply look in w/o working for it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/7 "2013-02-18T08:26:55Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > So my question is: If a person has no interest in the afforementioned drugs / child porn / deviant subcultures, what is there on Tor worth seeing and doing? [https://www.torproject.org/](https://www.torproject.org/) [https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en](https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en) > [@](#): > > Tor prevents anyone from learning your location or browsing habits. > > Tor is for web browsers, instant messaging clients, remote logins, and more. > … > Individuals use Tor to keep websites from tracking them and their family members, or to connect to news sites, instant messaging services, or the like when these are blocked by their local Internet providers. Tor’s hidden services let users publish web sites and other services without needing to reveal the location of the site. Individuals also use Tor for socially sensitive communication: chat rooms and web forums for rape and abuse survivors, or people with illnesses. > > Journalists use Tor to communicate more safely with whistleblowers and dissidents. Non-governmental organizations (NGOs) use Tor to allow their workers to connect to their home website while they’re in a foreign country, without notifying everybody nearby that they’re working with that organization. > > Groups such as Indymedia recommend Tor for safeguarding their members’ online privacy and security. Activist groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) recommend Tor as a mechanism for maintaining civil liberties online. Corporations use Tor as a safe way to conduct competitive analysis, and to protect sensitive procurement patterns from eavesdroppers. They also use it to replace traditional VPNs, which reveal the exact amount and timing of communication. Which locations have employees working late? Which locations have employees consulting job-hunting websites? Which research divisions are communicating with the company’s patent lawyers? > > A branch of the U.S. Navy uses Tor for open source intelligence gathering, and one of its teams used Tor while deployed in the Middle East recently. Law enforcement uses Tor for visiting or surveilling web sites without leaving government IP addresses in their web logs, and for security during sting operations. ---
**Author:** ![Str8ope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@Str8ope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Str8ope)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/8 "2013-02-18T15:00:41Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > It’s a 2nd Amendment thing. > > The dark web offers protection against a tyrannical government by providing a method of communication free of prying eyes. It allows one to organize protests, move weapons and pass on other information that outside forces are screening for. Much of Arab Spring was organized on the dark web. Wikileaks was dark web. The “Dark web” is simply an obscure underground network of domains owned and/or operated by individuals who for one reason or another do not want their published data or visitor interactions visible to “web crawlers”, bots, snoops, or random window-shoppers and e-pedestrians etc… The owners of the sites simply dont want any person/entity that is not within the narrow specific scope of “visitor” they hope WILL find them to stumble upon their server content. There are more “prying eyes” on these sites than any tax burdened American who pays for it all would begin to believe. The data they collect is all-inclusive and staggering in detail and quantity. Your definition is purely inaccurate and cannot even qualify as a generalization! Wikileaks “was darkweb” What? This couldnt be a more pathetic inaccuracy! Wikileaks hoped EVERYONE found their publications and shared them with anyone and everyone. Wikileaks would have paid Google to crawl their servers for keywords! Wikileaks didnt even make an effort to hide their server locations because they were set up in countries that do not look for, or care what you publish on the internet and if its not a crime in that country, who’s going to arrest you or seize your servers? > [@](#): > > The vast majority of users on the dark web are upstanding citizens. Some of them are casting off the chains of oppression. A lot of them are just looking for a good buzz. A minority are trading blurry photographs from the Sixties when child pornography was legal. If you support the good uses, you have to accept the bad uses. More garbage! The majority of “Dark web” users are upstanding? You couldnt find a source to back this up in a million years if you had a billion dollars to do it. The dark web is trade enterprise. 60 percent or more is illegal drug trade either illicit or controlled substances sold on the black market. Then theres illegal pornography. Children filmed having sex either forcibly or willingly. Theres lists of prostitutes for every city in the world and the sites you find them on also accept payment. The sales and purchases of untraceable firearms, chemicals, components for bomb making, poisons and bio-hazard chemicals. Murder for hire, stolen credit card numbers that ALL work and sell by the thousands every day! Upstanding citizens? > [@](#): > > The dark web must exist and be tested daily. The code must be tested and tuned so that when the time comes, we’re locked, loaded, and ready for action. > > What’s worth doing there right now? Haven’t the foggiest idea… You have a VERY foggy idea about MANY things, and not a clear idea at all about the “dark Web” ---
**Author:** ![Str8ope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@Str8ope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Str8ope)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/9 "2013-02-18T17:20:07Z")
Oh, and tell us all how the US Constitution Bill of rights 2nd Amendment has anything to do with buying a firearm within the depths of the “dark web”? It does not. In any way shape or form. Those who have not surrendered the right by committing a crime, or had the right revoked in the best interest if the publics safety when diagnosed with a psychiatric illness, dont go to a website anonymously to buy a gun from an anonymous seller. Why? Its illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/10 "2013-02-18T22:01:41Z")
Cite? Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/11 "2013-02-19T16:02:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Is there a place or a way for someone to do a search on the deep dark web to find out just what exactly IS out there for one to peruse? There are a handful of search engines to help browse. However, they aren’t exactly Google and the results have been pretty poor. Part of the problem is that the darkwebs just aren’t very big to begin with, so there isn’t a lot of data for it browse. Part of the problem is that once you exclude hacking/drugs/porn, that eats up the vast majority of the actual content. This is part of the reason I’m asking what kind of decent content is out there, because I’m coming up with squat. As I mentioned before, it appears the real strength is for data transmission between people who have already established a relationship… because just “browsing” for information doesn’t appear very useful. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/12 "2013-02-24T08:21:22Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > There are a handful of search engines to help browse. However, they aren’t exactly Google and the results have been pretty poor. Part of the problem is that the darkwebs just aren’t very big to begin with, so there isn’t a lot of data for it browse. Part of the problem is that once you exclude hacking/drugs/porn, that eats up the vast majority of the actual content. > > This is part of the reason I’m asking what kind of decent content is out there, because I’m coming up with squat. As I mentioned before, it appears the real strength is for data transmission between people who have already established a relationship… because just “browsing” for information doesn’t appear very useful. The “darkweb” is incredibly lame. There is a site on the darkweb that lists all the sites that are out there and it’s really just a handful. The darkweb is only useful for people who buy/sell drugs and CP. This is partly due in part due to the lack of real resources. The internet has a slew of web servers and everything to go along with it to provide content for us. The darkweb is like the internet from the early-mid 90’s, at its best. So, why would anyone who wants to make anything creative and decent go out of their way to make it hard on themselves? My whole experience with Tor and the darkweb made me angry. Like, when you do something and it was totally pointless, and you are angry at yourself for using your time on it and now there is nothing you can do to get it back. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/13 "2013-02-24T10:32:51Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Well, I’m not arguing that Tor shouldn’t exist. That wasn’t the point of my post. > > I guess a better way of putting it is: What information can I browse and access, aside from the hacker/porn/drug stuff? You can browse anything that is available on the open internet, but you can do it without the site being able to tell who you are (which, otherwise they sometimes can) or where you are coming from (which, otherwise, they mostly can), and without your ISP being able to tell where you are going. I am pretty sure that Tor is used for this much, much more then it is used for accessing anything on the darkweb. I have never been on the darkweb, but I have used Tor to access news stories on [BBC.com](http://BBC.com), which, for some weird licensing reason, is blocked to users from the UK (who actually pay for the BBC via our TV licenses!).\* We can only access [bbc.co.uk](http://bbc.co.uk), and it does not have all the same material. Using Tor I can fool [BBC.com](http://BBC.com) into thinking I am accessing it from outside the UK, and it is happy. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ \*I think the issue is that [bbc.com](http://bbc.com) carries ads on its pages, and the BBC is not allowed, by law, to advertise within the UK. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/14 "2013-02-25T03:07:14Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > You can browse anything that is available on the open internet, but you can do it without the site being able to tell who you are (which, otherwise they sometimes can) or where you are coming from (which, otherwise, they mostly can), and without your ISP being able to tell where you are going. I am pretty sure that Tor is used for this much, much more then it is used for accessing anything on the darkweb. > > I have never been on the darkweb, but I have used Tor to access news stories on [BBC.com](http://BBC.com), which, for some weird licensing reason, is blocked to users from the UK (who actually pay for the BBC via our TV licenses!).\* We can only access [bbc.co.uk](http://bbc.co.uk), and it does not have all the same material. Using Tor I can fool [BBC.com](http://BBC.com) into thinking I am accessing it from outside the UK, and it is happy. Google no longer supports searching with the Tor browser. It used to but not anymore. I would not be surprised if all the others followed suit. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uses-for-tor-and-darkwebs/650505/15 "2013-02-25T04:43:45Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > The “darkweb” is incredibly lame. There is a site on the darkweb that lists all the sites that are out there and it’s really just a handful. The darkweb is only useful for people who buy/sell drugs and CP. > > This is partly due in part due to the lack of real resources. The internet has a slew of web servers and everything to go along with it to provide content for us. The darkweb is like the internet from the early-mid 90’s, at its best. So, why would anyone who wants to make anything creative and decent go out of their way to make it hard on themselves? > > My whole experience with Tor and the darkweb made me angry. Like, when you do something and it was totally pointless, and you are angry at yourself for using your time on it and now there is nothing you can do to get it back. It could be a decent idea for an ARG, though. [Stranger](http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/03/portal-fans-find-secret-images-bbs-phone-number-in-radio-messag/) things have been used in them.