# Using a time machine you go back to find the historical Jesus. What do you think you'll really find? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828 "2012-10-16T00:06:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/81 "2012-10-17T18:06:52Z")
> [@bup](#): > > OK, then… > > [Rock-bottom scholarly estimates are 8000 by 100 CE](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/improbable/luck.html#18.3). You’re citing an inferential mathematical model made by Rodney Stark which is not based on actual evidence, but upon assumptions about growth patterns. he takes his starting numbers from the New Testament itself, which makes the whole thing circular. Stark also does not say that was a minimum number, but a maximum number. He says it “could not have been _more_” than that number. Furthermore, there is no definition of “Christian” here, so exactly what does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/82 "2012-10-17T18:44:39Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Maybe 2000 years from now there’ll be a message board where people will debate whether or not there really was an L. Ron Hubbard or whether or not he was made up by 22nd century new age gurus as an amalgamation of 20th and 21st century teachers. I would more analogise it like: In 2000 years will people be debating whether there really was a Clark Kent? I see Jesus the same way I see King Arthur, Hercules, Beowulf, and even Superman. He’s a legend, made up by people who needed a legend to unite them, entertain them, save them. > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I’d expect to find that the myth sprung up as the result of my careless inquiries. Isn’t that how it usually goes? Now wouldn’t that be a kick in the head. Or wait! You get stuck in the past and use your knowledge of basic sanitation and healthcare on the people around you and it turns out **YOU ARE THE JESUS!** ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/83 "2012-10-17T18:45:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I don’t claim to have evidence that would satisfy another person. This is IMHO, not GD. I believe I have personal experience of Jesus. I do not expect you to believe this experience is anything other than a delusion. And I certainly agree that skepticism is the appropriate reaction to reports of phenomena with supposedly supernatural explanations. > > But the OP asked what we would expect to find if we had the use of a time machine set to take us back to when Jesus lived (if he did), or to the time of whatever persons or events spawned the Jesus legend occurred (if there wasn’t a historical Jesus). I gave my answer. I did not intend to defend it; it’s not the sort of thing that one can logically defend. And, as I pointed out, this is IMHO, not GD. This is a more reasonable tone you strike here, **RT** , than the [last](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=621175)time you and I danced around this particular bush. I commend you on striking that tone here. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/84 "2012-10-17T19:18:15Z")
Question: “Explain Elvis’ appeal.” Normal people: “Well, he was young and very good looking and charismatic. He sang catchy, simple songs kids could dance to. He made black music accessible to white kids. He didn’t whitewash his sexuality.” Contrarians: I cannot answer that question because it’s just a myth that Elvis was the King of Rock 'n Roll. You will never find documentation that he was truly royalty. EVER. Because it doesn’t exist. And because _I_ know this, and refuse to be deluded by it, I am superior to you. Normal people: Well, okay. Thanks for taking a potentially interesting topic and derailing it with your odd sense of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/85 "2012-10-17T19:32:06Z")
> [@Nazarene](#): > > This is a really silly trope. For one thing, Paul was preaching to Gentiles outside of Palestine, so they would have been in no position to know anything one way or the other, but moire significantly, how is anyone supposed to know that somebody did _not_ exist? > > Let’s I say I know a guy named Steve who knew a guy in London named Bob, and Steve told me he once saw Bob jump over a house like the Hulk. There were MILLIONS of people living in London at that time. Surely they would know if Bob never existed, right? So I can’t possibly be making the story up. You have to believe me, right? How could I possibly be making that up when there are so many people who know Bob never existed. > > Furthermore, there is an assumption inherent in your premise that even if somebody HAD objected, it would have mattered in the least to believers. All you have to do is look around. Does Obama’s birth certificate make any difference to believers? Mountains of evidence for Global Warming and evolution? Video proof of psychics scamming audiences with stage magic? Since when have even concrete facts and evidence ever mattered to true believers, much less somebody telling them something they don’t want to hear. > > Seriously, how do you think anybody was either supposed to know or prove there was NOT a Jesus? How can you prove even now that a person you never heard of did not exist? No, this isn’t really true. Paul got the ball rolling on taking the new religion out to non-Jews. But Paul was a Jew and many of the people he was dealing with were Jews. He wouldn’t have been able to get away with making up recent historical events in Judea. The historical reality of Jesus was actually a major problem that the early Christians had to overcome. Religions had always been based on legendary events back in pre-history - the Christians had a hard time selling people on the idea that a major religious event had just happened in their own time. And gods were supposed to be powerful figures - but the Christian god had been a wandering preacher who was powerless to save even his own life. The Christians would never have invented Jesus - they had to put a lot of work into convincing people to accept Christianity despite Jesus. If they were going to invent a founder, they would have come up with something better. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/86 "2012-10-17T19:56:29Z")
Why do you keep trying to argue with me about the existence of Jesus? I have not argued the contrary. Paul was talking to people who were in no position to know anything ABOUT Jesus, though. Like I said, if he did NOT exist, how would they know that? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/87 "2012-10-17T20:07:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Christians would never have invented Jesus - they had to put a lot of work into convincing people to accept Christianity despite Jesus. If they were going to invent a founder, they would have come up with something better. So the story was so ridiculous that no one in their right mind would believe it unless it was true? Do you believe tales of alien abduction? I mean, they’re far too outrageous to be true, yet lots of people believe them, and lots of people can’t all be fools, so therefore aliens? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/88 "2012-10-17T20:13:08Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Yeah, this is more or less my guess. It would explain some of the minor anomalies between the Gospels. You probably couldn’t swing a cat in Judea, or anywhere within a few hundred miles of same, without hitting some young rabbi/preacher proclaiming he had the hotline to God. One guy died and was buried; another took his place, prompting the beginnings of the “Resurrection.” (Think of this as my “Jesus of Sherwood” theory ;)) I immediately redubbed this the “Dread Pirate Jesus” theory. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/89 "2012-10-17T20:16:00Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I immediately redubbed this the “Dread Pirate Jesus” theory. I’d convert to that! DPJ! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/90 "2012-10-17T20:21:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Right here in the US of A, which has been around for only a couple hundred years, we have such figures as Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett, and Jim Bowie who indisputably existed. They are also legendary in that there are all manner of folk tales told about them that absolutely didn’t happen. Because Davey Crockett never really grinned a bear out of tree, does that mean there wasn’t a historical Davey Crockett? I’d say only Davey Crockett fits the analogy you’re going for, and even then, there’s only a thin veneer of story attached to the real Davey Crockett - it’s pretty clear from the folktales what is embellishment and what isn’t. It’s when you get to, say, Johnny Appleseed that you get a better analogy. But to me, Jesus is more likely Paul Bunyan than Davey Crockett. All veneer, no substance. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/91 "2012-10-17T20:29:36Z")
> [@Nazarene](#): > > You’re citing an inferential mathematical model made by Rodney Stark which is not based on actual evidence, but upon assumptions about growth patterns. he takes his starting numbers from the New Testament itself, which makes the whole thing circular. Well, he also based it on numbers at the end - that is, 300 CE. But OK, that’s not great evidence - what about Nero blaming Christians for the great fire of Rome? Isn’t that decent evidence that Christians were a group at least known? What about the letters from Paul to 7 churches? Isn’t 7 churches that far apart pretty good evidence that we’re at least talking in the low thousands in membership? Again I say if you believe Paul was historical, you either believe Jesus was a historical figure, or Paul was willfully and knowingly orchestrating a huge conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/92 "2012-10-17T20:30:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d say only Davey Crockett fits the analogy you’re going for, and even then, there’s only a thin veneer of story attached to the real Davey Crockett - it’s pretty clear from the folktales what is embellishment and what isn’t. It’s when you get to, say, Johnny Appleseed that you get a better analogy. But to me, Jesus is more likely Paul Bunyan than Davey Crockett. All veneer, no substance. Based on ‘nuh-uh.’ ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/93 "2012-10-17T20:33:42Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Again I say if you believe Paul was historical, you either believe Jesus was a historical figure, or Paul was willfully and knowingly orchestrating a huge conspiracy. Or, Paul himself was taken in by the messiah cult mythos and innocently preached it, adding his own interpretations as he went. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/94 "2012-10-17T20:40:25Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Based on ‘nuh-uh.’ Based on real-world experience with exactly this sort of thing - I mean, how many followers did Joseph Smith have in a decade - does that make Moroni real? People will straight-up believe the weirdest shit if you sell it to them right. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/95 "2012-10-17T20:43:00Z")
It doesn’t follow from Joseph Smith that Jesus is more Paul Bunyan than Davy Crockett. Paul Bunyan was truly based on \*nobody \*- you’re saying there is no historical Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/96 "2012-10-17T20:44:52Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Or, Paul himself was taken in by the messiah cult mythos and innocently preached it, adding his own interpretations as he went. But that’s what I’m getting at - Paul was close enough to the apostles and to some early martyrs that he would have known whether Jesus was a mystic legend, or this guy that these guys all knew who died. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/97 "2012-10-17T20:47:02Z")
> [@bup](#): > > But that’s what I’m getting at - Paul was close enough to the apostles and to some early martyrs that he would have known whether Jesus was a mystic legend, or this guy that these guys all knew who died. Or he was a gullible bubkis with a vivid imagination and a need to feel important. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/98 "2012-10-17T20:53:50Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It doesn’t follow from Joseph Smith that Jesus is more Paul Bunyan than Davy Crockett. What do Moroni and Paul Bunyan have in common? > [@](#): > > Paul Bunyan was truly based on \*nobody \*- you’re saying there is no historical Jesus. Paul Bunyan as we know him was made up for an advertising campaign. Joseph Smith made up Moroni. People make stuff up all the time. Why not Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/99 "2012-10-17T20:55:01Z")
> [@bup](#): > > But that’s what I’m getting at - Paul was close enough to the apostles and to some early martyrs that he would have known whether Jesus was a mystic legend, or this guy that these guys all knew who died. Do you think Brigham Young believed Joseph Smith really saw Moroni? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828/100 "2012-10-17T20:56:19Z")
Well, then we’re in agreement. It would have to be an intentional conspiracy on Paul’s part. That’s, frankly, my feeling about Joseph Smith. In Paul’s case, though, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Occam’s razor suggests to me Paul believed in what he was doing. ETA - > [@](#): > > Do you believe Brigham Young thought Joseph Smith actually saw Moroni? Well, yes. Good point. So you think the apostles lied to Paul? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-a-time-machine-you-go-back-to-find-the-historical-jesus-what-do-you-think-youll-really-find/637828.md?page=6)