# Using blank tapes in the 80's, why no RIAA lawsuits? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 14, 2010, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227 "2010-08-14T08:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/21 "2010-08-14T18:42:22Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > DJs were also supposed to “front-sell” at the beginning of the song or “back-sell” at the end so listeners would know what to look for at the record store. … Was that more of an AM “[Top 40](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_40)” thing than a FM “[AOR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Album-oriented_rock)” thing? (Links for the young’uns!) CMC fnord! Who didn’t have a radio with an FM dial 'till the late 70’s, so I missed the glory days of [WPLJ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WPLJ#Early_years) and [WNEW-FM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNEW-FM#Early_years). ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/22 "2010-08-14T19:34:38Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > There was a big enough anti-taping campaign back then, remember the stupid ‘Home taping is killling music’ line? No, actually I didn’t hear that. I heard about it a few years ago, long after the fact, but I don’t recall hearing that in the 80’s. > [@twickster](#): > > Since I wanted to be able to answer **Superhal** ’s ATMB question (“Has a thread ever been moved TO GQ?”) in the affirmative, I’m moving this from MPSIMS to GQ. > > Plus it seemed like a sound enough idea. > > **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator I wasn’t sure which forum to put this thread in, but I figured that people would have lots of opinions which is why I thought MPSIMS might be the proper forum. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not in in the US. Only libraries can create a backup for fair use, not individuals. As mentioned earlier, there’s the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 > [@Wikipedia](#): > > The Act also includes blanket protection from infringement actions for private, non-commercial analog audio copying, and for digital audio copies made with digital audio recording devices. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/23 "2010-08-14T19:47:52Z")
And as for record companies releasing inferior cassette tapes, since type II & IV tapes are superior to type I tapes, my best friend at the time and I would sometimes make notches in prerecorded tapes so that tape players would play them as type II tapes. :dubious: It seemed logical at the time. :smack: Also, I remember seeing a few prerecorded tapes which claimed to be Cr02, but yet one I bought didn’t have the proper notches to play as a type II tape. Since it used 120 µs playback equalization instead of 70 µs I wondered what the point was. Unless it was just a marketing gimmick. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/24 "2010-08-14T22:49:56Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > And as for record companies releasing inferior cassette tapes, since type II & IV tapes are superior to type I tapes, my best friend at the time and I would sometimes make notches in prerecorded tapes so that tape players would play them as type II tapes. :dubious: It seemed logical at the time. :smack: Heh, worked well enough with floppies, it was worth a shot 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/25 "2010-08-14T22:52:25Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Since I wanted to be able to answer **Superhal** ’s ATMB question (“Has a thread ever been moved TO GQ?”) in the affirmative, I’m moving this from MPSIMS to GQ. > > Plus it seemed like a sound enough idea. > > **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator Curses! Foiled again! ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/26 "2010-08-14T23:49:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Nobody](#): > > > > And as for record companies releasing inferior cassette tapes, since type II & IV tapes are superior to type I tapes, my best friend at the time and I would sometimes make notches in prerecorded tapes so that tape players would play them as type II tapes. :dubious: It seemed logical at the time. :smack: > > Heh, worked well enough with floppies, it was worth a shot 🙂 Floppies? 😕 I’m talking music tapes, not data tapes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/27 "2010-08-14T23:56:16Z")
There’s even [a song](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KRHudaHUo0) about taping music off the radio. _“Policeman stopped me in my tracks said “Hey you, you can’t tape that you’re under arrest 'cause it’s illegal” So I shoved him off and blew his whistle I’m a pirate and I keep my loot So I blew him out with my bazooka.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Student\_Driver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Student\_Driver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Student_Driver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/28 "2010-08-15T04:38:46Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > Heh, worked well enough with floppies, it was worth a shot 🙂 > > Floppies? 😕 I’m talking music tapes, not data tapes. He was just referring to the concept of cutting notches in media to fool the players into treating them as a different type. A similar practice to your cassette notching existed in the 1980s for 5.25" floppies, where cutting a notch into a single-sided diskette allowed you to (usually) use it in lieu of a more expensive double-sided floppy. (And as a complete aside, Coleco Adam users often notched audio cassettes to allow them to be used as “data packs” for the computer…) ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/29 "2010-08-15T06:14:00Z")
> [@Student\_Driver](#): > > > [@Nobody](#): > > > > Floppies? 😕 I’m talking music tapes, not data tapes. > > He was just referring to the concept of cutting notches in media to fool the players into treating them as a different type. A similar practice to your cassette notching existed in the 1980s for 5.25" floppies, where cutting a notch into a single-sided diskette allowed you to (usually) use it in lieu of a more expensive double-sided floppy. > > (And as a complete aside, Coleco Adam users often notched audio cassettes to allow them to be used as “data packs” for the computer…) Oh I see. Although in that case cutting a notch actually made sense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/30 "2010-08-15T06:59:31Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Once you have bought a couple of rubbish pre-recorded tapes, and then copied your album or cd on your own better quality tapes on your own home hifi, you quickly realise you are being taken for mug, so you don’t buy any more pre-recorded tapes, and the culutre of home recording increases by on more person who wised up. > > The record execs were simply stupid, lazy and greedy, a fatal combination. It sounds to me like you are making the mistake many enthusiasts make: I lived through the era and was quite into music and never had any idea about the stuff you are talking about here. I am not saying that your assertions are incorrect, merely that while you may have known about this stuff and acted accordingly, that doesn’t mean the mass market did. I rather suspect the record execs knew more about what made them money than you do. They may have been greedy in your view but let’s face it, one man’s “greedy” is another man’s “complying with my duty at law to shareholders”. However, overall, I suspect that they thought long and hard about their actions and profited by them and if so that is hardly stupid or lazy. ---
**Author:** ![asian\_riff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecccb3/32.png) [@asian\_riff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asian_riff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/31 "2010-08-15T08:24:23Z")
I think there’s quite a difference between then - copying a few songs off the radio (that will be poor quality) or having your friend come over and tape a couple of your albums, and now - being able to instantly distribute your music to millions of people that you don’t even know. The former could be seen as slightly hurting profits, while the latter could easily decimate the entire music industry. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/32 "2010-08-15T12:27:46Z")
I’m pretty sure the reason for bad quality cassettes when CDs came out was that they wanted you to buy the CD. The same thing has happened with DVDs in regard to extras since Blu-ray came out. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/33 "2010-08-15T12:40:12Z")
In this thread it looks like most people are referring to cassettes when they say “tapes”, but there was open reel taping before cassettes even existed (although by the 80’s it had diminished). Open reel copying of LPs or radio certainly did exist (I did it), but a good open reel tape recorder was expensive and not in most people’s homes. The media was expensive, too, and unless you used a low speed – with correspondingly low fidelity – it might cost more to tape an LP than buy it. Some new release, popular LPs only cost $1.80 at Tower Records. To answer the OP, the record companies didn’t think home taping was much of a threat and it wasn’t widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/34 "2010-08-15T12:51:12Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > I remember a serious proposal that every blank tape should have a royalty fee built into the price on the assumption that copyrighted material would be put onto it, never seemed to happen though various attempts were made. More than a serious proposal it was, and is, in place for music-intended blank recordable media. From cassettes to blank CDs as well as the gear to make the data transfer (though not all of that) there is a ‘private copying levy’ that transfers to labels, artists, and writers a percentage of that sale. > **[Private copying levy | United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_States)** > > 17 U.S.C. § 1008, as legislated by the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, says that non-commercial copying by consumers of digital and analog musical recordings is not copyright infringement. Non-commercial includes such things as resale not in the course of business, perhaps of normal use working copies which are no longer wanted. It is unlikely to include resale of copies in bulk; Napster tried to use the Section 1008 defense but was rejected because it was a business. > From House Report No. 102... ---
**Author:** ![In\_Winnipeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a8b319/32.png) [@In\_Winnipeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Winnipeg)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/35 "2010-08-15T21:50:53Z")
Basically, the recording industry are a bunch of big babies because the quality of the technology has become something they could never have conceived of, and this is what upsets them – they are no longer in control of the technology. Oh, it was all fine and good when they helped to dictate format changes, from records to 8 tracks and cassettes to CD’s (and sometimes were able to sell the same recordings in all formats to some individuals), but now that the worm has turned, they’re bawling out there. All I can say is TFB. ---
**Author:** ![be\_bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@be\_bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/be_bright)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/36 "2010-08-15T21:59:53Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > > [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > > > But basically, the industry would have no way of tracking down those who did make copies back in the day, and even then, it wouldn’t be worth their time since there was almost no mass-distribution/copying like there is now. > > That’s what I was thinking. Being easier to track people. You’re Nobody, though, so you don’t have much to worry about. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/37 "2010-08-15T22:16:40Z")
😛 I use to download songs peer-to-peer because I didn’t see how it was any worse than recording from the radio or making mixed tapes, but then I decided it didn’t matter how I **feel** , the **fact** is that it’s illegal so I decided to stop. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/38 "2010-08-16T05:35:15Z")
Anybody wanna buy about 200 bootleg 90-minute cassettes made back in the 80s? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/39 "2010-08-16T05:55:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > In this thread it looks like most people are referring to cassettes when they say “tapes”, but there was open reel taping before cassettes even existed (although by the 80’s it had diminished). Open reel copying of LPs or radio certainly did exist (I did it), but a good open reel tape recorder was expensive and not in most people’s homes. The media was expensive, too, and unless you used a low speed – with correspondingly low fidelity – it might cost more to tape an LP than buy it. Some new release, popular LPs only cost $1.80 at Tower Records. > > To answer the OP, the record companies didn’t think home taping was much of a threat and it wasn’t widespread. I have to admit that in 1970 I was clever enough to bring a tape recorder (reel to reel( to college, not a record player (which I got later.) A big reel to reel tape at medium speed can tape five albums, which was a lot cheaper than buying things you like but don’t love - especially when you have a lot of people around with a lot of records. WBCN in Boston had rare tape nights, when they played stuff not then available - some bootlegs, some long versions that have later been released. Some music stores had special sales on reel to reel tapes coincidental with this night. And, as far as reproduction quality goes I’ll always take a professionally mastered CD, but I have some Dylan bootlegs recorded from a record to reel to reel in 1971, from that to a cassette in 1979, and burned to a CD last year, and it still sounds pretty good. Stuff I put on crappy cassettes has died, but I’ve bought CDs for all of those I care about. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227/40 "2010-08-16T14:30:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > Not in in the US. Only libraries can create a backup for fair use, not individuals. > > Is there a case where someone has been found to have violated copyright by creating a backup for their own personal use? Has there been a case where this has been declared fair use? The law does not allow a fair use exemption for archive copies except for libraries. Period. [Read the law](http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107). Now, if no one decided to sue someone over the issue, that’s one thing. But it’s quite another to claim a right that you do not have under the law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-blank-tapes-in-the-80s-why-no-riaa-lawsuits/550227.md?page=3)