# Using Feces for Fuel - how could people stand it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 19, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300 "2012-04-19T18:03:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/21 "2012-04-20T04:06:17Z")
> [@vicjperry](#): > > It’s being discussed (if not already done) that sewage treatment plants are considering using the excess sludge from human waste to use as fertilizer for crops. God help us if this happens. Can you say Mad Human Disease? Hepatitis salad? HIV Veggy burgers? Cancer Cauliflower? Etc. What do you think happens now and for most of human history? BTW Prions are in brain tissue(if raw sewage in your area contains a large amount of human brains :eek:) Hep and HIV can’t survive being out in a field, and cancer is not contagious(if you’re talking about HPV no way is it gonna survive in a field). ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/22 "2012-04-20T04:28:20Z")
> [@vicjperry](#): > > It’s being discussed (if not already done) that sewage treatment plants are considering using the excess sludge from human waste to use as fertilizer for crops. God help us if this happens. Can you say Mad Human Disease? Hepatitis salad? HIV Veggy burgers? Cancer Cauliflower? Etc. I’m almost certain you’re confusing sludge (sewage as it goes into a treatment plant) with the solids left behind at the end of the treatment cycle. After going through the treatment process, the biosolids at the end resemble human feces about as much as human feces resemble food. The various biological and chemical treatments they go through ensure that any pathogens in the source material are eliminated. When I toured our local STP in high school the guide made it a point to have all of us scoop up a handful of what was left at the end of the process. It felt and smelled essentially like dirt. Regardless, none of the diseases you mention could plausibly be transmitted or caused by fertilizing food even with raw human sewage, much less processed biosolids. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/23 "2012-04-20T05:14:24Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Regardless, none of the diseases you mention could plausibly be transmitted or caused by fertilizing food even with raw human sewage, much less processed biosolids. Where do e coli outbreaks from vegetables come from, then? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/24 "2012-04-20T06:19:53Z")
Milwaukee sewage sludge has been used for fertilizer since 1926. Milorganite is very popular on golf greens because of its richness and it doesn’t burn the grass. I’ve been buying a bag for my yard every spring since 1997. My local Farmer’s Co-Op Sells it. It really won’t burn grass. I’ve had minor spills on my yard and I just level out the pile with my shoe. It’s never killed a blade of grass yet. I also use it in my flowerbeds. Like any good fertilizer there’s a Urea smell. Which is a sign of quality. That’s the high nitrogen levels. No poop or urine smell at all. I wouldn’t use it in a home garden. That’s just my personal preference. They claim Milorganite is pure but I’m not eating vegetables grown in it. > [@vicjperry](#): > > It’s being discussed (if not already done) that sewage treatment plants are considering using the excess sludge from human waste to use as fertilizer for crops. God help us if this happens. Can you say Mad Human Disease? Hepatitis salad? HIV Veggy burgers? Cancer Cauliflower? Etc. > [@](#): > > Headquartered in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Milorganite products are manufactured and marketed by the Milwaukee _Metropolitan Sewerage District (MMSD), a regional government agency whose primary focus is providing water reclamation and flood management services for about 1.1 million customers in 28 communities in the Greater Milwaukee Area. Since 1926 MMSD has been a world leader in supplying Organic Nitrogen fertilizers for professional and residential use._ > **[Learn About Milorganite Fertilizer & Our Commitment to the Environment](https://www.milorganite.com/about-us)** > > Milorganite is one of the nation’s oldest and world’s largest recycling efforts. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/25 "2012-04-20T06:47:20Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Where do e coli outbreaks from vegetables come from, then? That last part of my post was more of a nitpick than a general comment on the safety of using feces as fertilizer. None of the specific diseases **vicjperry** mentioned in his post (prion disease, hepatitis, HIV, or cancer) could be spread or caused by manure. Obviously E. coli (and a host of others) could be. However, that doesn’t change my main point, which was that using processed biosolids from a treatment plant is NOT akin to using raw sewage. See **Aceplace** ’s post mentioning Milorganite, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/26 "2012-04-20T07:00:27Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I wouldn’t use it in a home garden. That’s just my personal preference. They claim Milorganite is pure [Well…](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pure_finder) ---
**Author:** ![Corcaigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Corcaigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corcaigh)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/27 "2012-04-20T10:16:14Z")
A few years ago people were recommending using horse poop as briquettes on fires. You put the poop into a briquette maker, and leave it to dry for 3 to 4 weeks, it doesn’t smell and burns reasonably well. Apparently if you use wood based bedding (shavings or sawdust) it burns better. However a report by some scientist claims that burning horse poo gives off chemicals that are extremely dangerous to pregnant women and young girls (can’t cite, as it was a post on another board with no links to anything) Apparently the chemicals are from wormers and feed additives like mineral licks and supplements. A never ending supply of free fuel causes medical problems huh? Seems legit. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/28 "2012-04-20T12:46:48Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > I’m almost certain you’re confusing sludge (sewage as it goes into a treatment plant) with the solids left behind at the end of the treatment cycle. After going through the treatment process, the biosolids at the end resemble human feces about as much as human feces resemble food. The various biological and chemical treatments they go through ensure that any pathogens in the source material are eliminated. When I toured our local STP in high school the guide made it a point to have all of us scoop up a handful of what was left at the end of the process. It felt and smelled essentially like dirt. Those residual solids you’re describing here _are_ the sludge. The input to a treatment plant is generally called wastewater; the outputs are treated water and [sludge](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sludge). “Biosolids” is a PR term because nobody’s going to put “sludge” on their tomatoes. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/29 "2012-04-20T13:29:50Z")
> [@NorthernBiker](#): > > It’s not true that all poop stinks and it really depends on the food that made up the poop. Herbivores tend to have much less offensive odor, while carnivores and omnivores tend to have much stinkier poops. > > I think you are assuming all humans have access to other means of fuel. In many place say Mongolia or Tibet, you don’t have trees so if you wanted fuel for a fire, you burnt what you had. They probably did smell like the cow dung, but also their own body odor, the animals, outdoors etc. Person cleanliness is secondary to survival, plus you’d have grown up with the smell and it would be normal. > > Domestic animal dung would be preferred over human poop due to larger size, frequency and burn ability. Fresh Cow Manure, however, really does not smell good. I’ve lived around dairy farms a lot, and I know that smell. So does my wife, who grew up equidistant from a major dairy farm and the plant that makes orange flavoring for Jello. To this day she can’t stand orange Jello, she says, because in her memory the smell is conmingled with that of cow poop. Regarding the usefulness of cow manure, have a look at anthropologist Marvin Harris’ books. In several of them he points out that the Sacredness of cattle in India derives in part from the extreme usefulness of the animal in a great many ways. Among these is the use of Manure, which is not only fertilizer, but buiolding compound (it is used in making floors sand walls) and as fuel. evemn in tyhe availability of wood, dried cow manure provides a slow-burning fuel that can be used for long-burning fires to slow-cook foods unattended in a “crock-pot” while the mother is working outside, he claims. ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/30 "2012-04-20T15:58:48Z")
Yeah, I don’t know what people are smoking here. Opinion, I know, but fresh cow and horse dung doesn’t smell all that good. Thankfully, it loses that smell quickly, and takes on more of that “earthy” smell that many people seem to like (or, at least, not mind). That said, the times I’ve been on a farm, I discovered that while cow dung doesn’t smell that great, cow _urine_ is as vile a stench as one can imagine. _Shudder_. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/31 "2012-04-20T16:02:49Z")
> [@vicjperry](#): > > It’s being discussed (if not already done) that sewage treatment plants are considering using the excess sludge from human waste to use as fertilizer for crops. God help us if this happens. Can you say Mad Human Disease? Hepatitis salad? HIV Veggy burgers? Cancer Cauliflower? Etc. 1. Never heard of that. There are projects to use manure - human and animal - in a tank which ferments and produces biogas (methane ?) which is then burned instead of natural gas. This works very nice in small scale in African countries. (The improved latrine is a ventilated latrine, but that doesn’t produce gas). There are talks about doing this large-scale in other countries, I think Cecil did a column and nixed it on the ground of cost of transport. My city already does this: at the sewage plants, the sludge is taken out and ferments in a high tower producing biogas. This gas is then cleaned, burned to produce electricity and used to power (partly) the sewage plant. German video here [http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/baureferat/mse.html](http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/baureferat/mse.html) (halfway down the page Energie aus Klärschlamm German PDF here [http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/rathaus/dms/Home/Stadtverwaltung/Baureferat/mse/pubblikationen/pdf/faultuerme\_klw\_I\_pdf.pdf](http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/rathaus/dms/Home/Stadtverwaltung/Baureferat/mse/pubblikationen/pdf/faultuerme_klw_I_pdf.pdf) 1. In the past, sludge from sewage plants was dumped onto fields, just as untreated manure purin is still allowed to be dumped despite the problems. The problem however was not the bacteria, but rather heavy metals and similar from the other stuff in the water that ended in the sludge. (With purin, liquid cow shit, the problem is excessive nitrite and yes, bacteria and similar). However, organic farmers know what to do with cow manure: instead of diluting it into purin, they take the solid manure and let it compose for several months. During this time, not only does the compost heap reach high temps. of above 40 C (killing bacteria), it changes composition to actually serve as positive fertilizer. So done with the correct treatment, it could be done, but would be not-practical idea, compared to letting cow manure compose and human shit ferment. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/32 "2012-04-20T16:05:25Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Where do e coli outbreaks from vegetables come from, then? Using untreated manure or shit, usually. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/33 "2012-04-20T16:07:04Z")
I’ve been around people who were heating their home/apartment with a kerosene heater (due to economics). Lemme tell you, they stank. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/34 "2012-04-20T16:17:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > My question is… How could they stand the smell? Wouldn’t smoke from roasted cow patties get into your clothes & hair? Wouldn’t the person carry that smell with them? Besides the answers already mentioned - that dried dung doesn’t smell as much as human shit - another aspect is that because dung contains so much organic stuff and moisture, it will make a smokey fire (compared to a fire from very dry wood which produces very little smoke). This is often an advantage, however, because it keeps flies and similar away. Herdsmen sometimes throw wet grass and other stuff on a fire on purpose to keep the flying pests away if it gets bad. > [@](#): > > Which dung is suitable for fuel? Is it only herbivores? I only know of herbivores: cows in many parts, camels in the Sahara desert, horses in the Mongolian steppes. Part of that is economy - the same amount of land will support more herbivores than carnivores. Esp. if it’s such a sparse land that can’t support trees in the first place. > [@](#): > > Is human poop burned as fuel to heat & cook anywhere? If you count indirectly by producing methane through fermentation and burning that, then yes. [Here’s a research](http://www.hedon.info/docs/EWB_ENERGY_Daniel_Buxton_and_Brian_Reed_Disposal_of_latrine_waste_Is_Biogas_the_answer.pdf)paper I found in english discussing latrines in poor countries. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/35 "2012-04-20T16:50:52Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Where do e coli outbreaks from vegetables come from, then? I believe an outbreak in…um…spinach or broccoli, don’t remember, a few years ago was attributed to wild pigs. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/36 "2012-04-20T18:19:21Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I have heard a song, which was purported to be from the time of dcrossing the plains, with a line about how it was “fun to cook with buffalo chips … throw on one that’s newly born … if I knew then what I know know I’d have gone around the horn.” That suggests that dried out, aged chips were relatively odorless, which I can well believe – ruminant dung has a LOT of undigested grass i it, and once the volatiles have evaporated and the water’s gone, what’s left isn’t going to be as malodourous. It’s not as if burning it is going to resore the moisture. > The song is “California Trail”. I have no idea how old it is, but several sites have the lyrics: > > [California Trail ~ Lyrics](http://www.kbapps.com/lyrics/cowboy-songs/CaliforniaTrail.php) > > [http://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-cowboysongs3.html](http://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-cowboysongs3.html) In interpret those lyrics differently. It seems they are complaining about the conditions on the trail and are saying they would prefer to round Cape Horn rather than cook with buffalo chips and green wood. You cannot find a stick of wood On all this prairie wide; Whene’er you eat you’ve got to stand Or sit on some old bull hide. It’s fun to cook with buffalo chips Or mesquite, green as corn, – If I’d once known what I know now I’d have gone around Cape Horn. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/37 "2012-04-20T19:09:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > My question is… How could they stand the smell? Wouldn’t smoke from roasted cow patties get into your clothes & hair? Wouldn’t the person carry that smell with them? You can get used to anything if it means keeping warm and eating cooked food instead of raw. Animal dung is used for fires in many places, particularly in the Sahara regions of Africa, where camel dung is used. I would suspect the same holds true for other arid climates such as the Gobi, and in high altitude areas where trees don’t grow. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/38 "2012-04-20T19:12:20Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > In interpret those lyrics differently. It seems they are complaining about the conditions on the trail and are saying they would prefer to round Cape Horn rather than cook with buffalo chips and green wood. You’re very clearly misunderstanding me – that’s the way I interpret it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/39 "2012-04-21T01:53:14Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why does horse manure smell so bad then? It doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300/40 "2012-04-21T02:04:13Z")
Heartily agree with **Ulfreida**! It _doesn’t_. Many people who ride, groom and then clean their horses’ stalls, and I have _never_ heard one complaint about a bad smell. I agree it might be an acquired… uh… _taste_, but one soon gets used to it and when you look into those big brown eyes, it doesn’t matter one bit. Because it was me who rode him, it fell to me to curry our mule Mr. Ed, and I never minded shovelling out his stall. Don’t laugh, please, but it became a pleasant responsibility which I can only liken to changing a baby’s diaper. Only better smelling. Q PS: Apparently I just repeated myself. Sorry! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-feces-for-fuel-how-could-people-stand-it/619300.md?page=3)