# Using multiple titles to address someone **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600 "2018-01-14T13:50:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/41 "2018-01-18T18:11:47Z")
Opposite of the multiple-titles problem: suppose an American went to work in Germany. “When in Rome,” of course. But suppose she felt uncomfortable at being addressed Frau Professor Doktor, and preferred her correspondence and conversations free of social and academic titles (at least her own), even though she had all those qualifications. Would it cause a genuine paperwork problem at the university, or in dealing with official government forms (these days, can the Form of Address field be set to null?) ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/42 "2018-01-18T18:23:41Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And to this Spaniard it’s funny, because Americans use more titles than we do. If people go beyond Mr., Ms. (Mrs. / Miss), Dr., the Honorable, and Mr. or Madam President, they are being silly. If people expect anything beyond that they are being the worst kind of pretentious. Except for those in religious orders, which is where all this started, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/43 "2018-01-18T18:44:25Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Opposite of the multiple-titles problem: suppose an American went to work in Germany. “When in Rome,” of course. But suppose she felt uncomfortable at being addressed Frau Professor Doktor, and preferred her correspondence and conversations free of social and academic titles (at least her own), even though she had all those qualifications. Would it cause a genuine paperwork problem at the university, or in dealing with official government forms (these days, can the Form of Address field be set to null?) The Title forms usually can be left empty, because not everybody has a title. The “form of adress” forms usually want either Frau or Herr (might Change with Intersex), so she would be called Frau Smith at least. I don’t know how the University would handle it - most Unis hire foreign professors for international Flair / as experts in their field, especially if it’s only for a limited time (a few Semesters), so hopefully they might be prepared. Or just as likely they are still in the 1970s somewhere, and haven’t fully changed from paper to Computer, let alone adapted to non-Standard forms. Socially, her conversations would … depend. If she’s talking in English, People would probably follow English/ American social norms more easily, e.g. the “Sie” Problem falls away. If most of her colleagues are also from abroad, or have spent time abroad, they might find it easier to deal with requests to adress her only as Frau Smith - or for full American style, as “Joan”. But native Germans, talking in German with her, would probably find it disrespectful to leave off all titles, maybe even Frau and Sie. It’s not done to call every Person Du and first Name, you earn that right. Students may call each other Du, because they are still Young, and of equal Standing, but that, too, varies amond subjects: in subjects with 2/3 “silver-hairs” (Seniors who are retired and study at Uni), People might adress each other with Sie, and I’ve heard that in Money-career-oriented subjects like Law and economy, students not only wear suits (instead of Jeans + T-shirt) but also adress each other with Sie. Also, it changes over time. The first formal introduction would be Frau Professor Doktor Smith to her colleagues, but when talking to each other during the day, it would probably be shortened to Frau Smith for practicality. Official correspondance would still be expected to carry full title, though. It’s similar to Email - official Email starts with Sehr geehrte Frau Professor Doktor Smith, (Honored…), but after a few weeks of working in the same Office, it gets shortened to Hallo Frau Smith. And also, a lot depends also on context and Feedback. If the colleagues and assistants notice that Frau Smith is okay at being adressed such, and makes a face at being called Frau Professor Doktor, it’s easier to adjust. In contrast, if crotchety old Herr Professor Doktor Müller glares at everybody who uses a shorter form, People make sure to remember and use the full form each time with him. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/44 "2018-01-18T18:46:13Z")
> [@j666](#): > > If people go beyond Mr., Ms. (Mrs. / Miss), Dr., the Honorable, and Mr. or Madam President, they are being silly. If people expect anything beyond that they are being the worst kind of pretentious. Yes: if other cultures do things differently, they don’t have valid reasons, or Tradition for it (just like your own culture) - they must be silly (or pretentious). That’s what to take away from this Long Exchange of different methods. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/45 "2018-01-18T22:54:47Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > No, it’s not about power structures. It’s partly the law - in Germany “…which are a bit more formal and a bit more structured…” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/46 "2018-01-18T23:14:38Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Better yet, let them type in their own titles, so you don’t have to anticipate every single one that might be used (and a dozen might not be nearly enough). > [@constanze](#): > > As non-programmer, I assume it would be easier to have a scroll-down field from which to select the official title, than to have a field where users can enter free-form - how do you account for length? As I said, this was decades ago. Data was entered via 029 keypunch onto punched cards\*, with very limited field lengths. For example, First Name was limited to 10 characters. Thus “Christopher” was too long. \*Unless I booked time on the PDP with an attached vector screen and a onscreen editor. Time was often available between 1am and 6am, especially on Friday & Saturday nights. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/47 "2018-01-19T01:56:24Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Yes: if other cultures do things differently, they don’t have valid reasons, or Tradition for it (just like your own culture) - they must be silly (or pretentious). That’s what to take away from this Long Exchange of different methods. :rolleyes: I think if you review my post, it will be clear that I was answering Nava and speaking about my culture. However, I think it holds true in most places where English is the primary language. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/48 "2018-01-19T04:01:15Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > As I said, this was decades ago. > > Data was entered via 029 keypunch onto punched cards\*, with very limited field lengths. For example, First Name was limited to 10 characters. Thus “Christopher” was too long. I took the PSATs in 1983 and the bubbly form only allowed eight characters. All my college mail came to “Gwendole”. I thought it was bizarre when you have common names like Elizabeth and Katherine out there. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/49 "2018-01-19T07:54:04Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > As I said, this was decades ago. > > Data was entered via 029 keypunch onto punched cards\*, with very limited field lengths. For example, First Name was limited to 10 characters. Thus “Christopher” was too long. Oh wow - Punch Cards? That _is_ Long ago. If you had to shorten first names, too, I expect People to be doubly pissed off… ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/50 "2018-01-19T08:27:26Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I think if you review my post, it will be clear that I was answering Nava and speaking about my culture. Then I misunderstood your broad declaration of silly / pretentious when you meant “is generally viewed as … in this culture”. > [@](#): > > However, I think it holds true in most places where English is the primary language. Oh - I didn’t know that Australia, USA, Canada and GB had one unified culture. I thought that even in the US, there are regional differences between the South and e.g. Boston, or between Texas and Silicon Valley. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/51 "2018-01-19T11:39:19Z")
Maybe there are people reading from enough different countries, regions, and churches that we can find out? I think that if you teach some courses in the USA you should not be shocked if multiple titles are not used, and the students simply address you as “Professor X” [definitely not “Professor Doctor Lord X”], unless you allow them to “call me Xavier,” but, like you said, it’s a diverse country. I don’t know where **gigi** hails from, but she wrote above that “reverend” is not formally a title, and it anyway occurs only in writing (“the reverend Father John Dimmesdale”); the spoken English is simply “Father”. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/52 "2018-01-19T12:05:18Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Don’t forget about the random German Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. h. c. mult. I think the long strings of titles are more for calling cards: if it were the Queen of England you would find “Your Majesty” sufficiently polite. “Your Maj” on first greeting, and “Ma’am” thereafter, at least in a formal meeting (walkabouts are something different). On the German accumulation of titles, I did hear it said of the conductor Karajan, in his bumptious early days, that, in some opera house or festival concert hall where there were only two backstage loos, a neatly-typed notice appeared on the door of one stating “For the personal use of Herr Dirigent Dr. Dr. von Karajan”. Within a few hours another notice had been attached to the other door, in the unmistakable handwriting of a rather older and well-respected conductor - “Für andere Arschlöcher”. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/53 "2018-01-19T13:08:06Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Then I misunderstood your broad declaration of silly / pretentious when you meant “is generally viewed as … in this culture”. > > Oh - I didn’t know that Australia, USA, Canada and GB had one unified culture. I thought that even in the US, there are regional differences between the South and e.g. Boston, or between Texas and Silicon Valley. They’re not. That’s what I was indicating by “However”. I understand that you read my post as a blanket condemnation of the use of multiple titles, but it wasn’t. It was part of a discussion of the use of titles in the U.S. I have no idea how you interpret my comment that a practice is common in countries with the same language as all these countries have one unified culture. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/54 "2018-01-19T14:39:24Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I don’t know where **gigi** hails from, but she wrote above that “reverend” is not formally a title, and it anyway occurs only in writing (“the reverend Father John Dimmesdale”); the spoken English is simply “Father”. Note I was speaking specifically about Roman Catholic priests – I gather than Protestant/other Christian denominations do refer to “Reverend So-and-so” in speech? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/55 "2018-01-19T15:01:09Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I understand that you read my post as a blanket condemnation of the use of multiple titles, but it wasn’t. It was part of a discussion of the use of titles in the U.S. I have no idea how you interpret my comment that a practice is common in countries with the same language as all these countries have one unified culture. Because if you make a Statement that a custom is “common in English-speaking” countries, instead of “common in US” you are implying that all English-speaking countries have the same custom. Which is only the case if they have the same culture, and not very different ones, which is my Impression. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/56 "2018-01-19T23:26:23Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Because if you make a Statement that a custom is “common in English-speaking” countries, instead of “common in US” you are implying that all English-speaking countries have the same custom. Which is only the case if they have the same culture, and not very different ones, which is my Impression. No, several countries can share one custom, and otherwise have different cultures. But I think we should let this conversation return to the use of multiple titles now. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/57 "2018-01-21T08:12:52Z")
Martin earned his titles, and they applied to the same field of professionalism, so I see no formal impropriety there. But it did make me wonder about practicality when they started naming streets after him and the normally-sized white-on-green street signs had to cram “Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd.” in type so small you couldn’t even read it while driving without straining your eyesight. It’s supposed to be an honor, not an optometrist exam. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/58 "2018-01-21T12:26:09Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Maybe there are people reading from enough different countries, regions, and churches that we can find out? Here in Ireland it would be perceived as unusual to use more than one title, whether addressing someone directly or referring to a third party. If a person is entitled to multiple titles (from religion, nobility, academic or secular) the standard practice is “choose one”. In the case of the Catholic hierarchy, they either go by their job title “Archbishop Robert Walsh”, or by the style “The Most Reverend Robert Walsh”, regardless of any academic or other titles they may have earned. An academic will go by “Professor” or “Dr” but not both (and certainly not “Dr Dr”). Irish citizens are not allowed to use a title of nobility or honour such as “Sir”. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/59 "2018-01-22T00:54:17Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Note I was speaking specifically about Roman Catholic priests – I gather than Protestant/other Christian denominations do refer to “Reverend So-and-so” in speech? Varies from place to place. “Reverend Smith”, who can be addressed simply as “Reverend”, seems to be common enough in American English. But in British English, and many other variants, “Rev John Smith” and “Rev Mr Smith” are both correct but rather old-fashioned, while “Rev Smith” is a solecism. If you’re speaking to him, you can call him “Mr. Smith” or “John”, or you can use the title of his office (e.g. “Vicar”). ---
**Author:** ![Anaglyph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anaglyph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaglyph)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600/60 "2018-01-22T09:00:45Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Opposite of the multiple-titles problem: suppose an American went to work in Germany. “When in Rome,” of course. But suppose she felt uncomfortable at being addressed Frau Professor Doktor, and preferred her correspondence and conversations free of social and academic titles (at least her own), even though she had all those qualifications. Would it cause a genuine paperwork problem at the university, or in dealing with official government forms (these days, can the Form of Address field be set to null?) Normally, both in English and in German, at an academic conference, all academic credentials are listed at the formal introduction of a speaker. After that, a simple “Dr.” or “Prof.” (earned degree or professional title) will do, and in informal discussion between attendants that are familiar with each other, first names are used. In correspondence, it also depends on how familiar you are with the addressee - If you don’t know him/her personally, you list the appropriate degrees/honorifics, or at least the most important one. If you know the addressee well enough, you follow his/her preference, especially if you send a letter to the personal address rather than to the institutional one. The main difference between American and German usage lies in the rules that govern the transition from formal to familiar address. Here German politeness imposes quite intricate rule on who may propose the transition to a more relaxed form of address, and it is considered quite rude to address an unknown person in the familiar mode. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-multiple-titles-to-address-someone/806600.md?page=4)